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This sounds very smart, but essentially what you're saying is that there isn't enough demand to support a store that sells fresh produce. Yes, the ability to p

by maria2 4y ago

This sounds very smart, but essentially what you're saying is that there isn't enough demand to support a store that sells fresh produce. Yes, the ability to profitably run a store is based off of margin and volume. Both of those are driven by demand.

etchalon 4y ago
I'm being explicit about what "demand" means, and how the economics of grocery stores intersect with things like physical space, infrastructure, government regulation, etc. lest someone think "there's not enough demand" means "poor people just don't want affordable, nutritious food." There can be plenty of demand for a quality grocery store, but not enough square footage available to support a store that sells the volume and mix of goods necessary to create a profitable business. There can be plenty of square footage, and relatively high demand but not enough literal humans in the area to support it. And there can be enough space, and enough people, but infrastructure problems which create uneven costs on the business.
- maria2 4y ago
  I understand what you're saying, but, a priori, how can you say the existence of food deserts is because of reason X vs. Y. For instance, the poorest Americans drink the most sugary drinks [0]. I can accept there may be other reasons for the existence of food deserts, but to outright dismiss that preferences might differ across incomes without any evidence feels like an argument made purely out of ideology. [0]: https://theconversation.com/poorest-americans-drink-a-lot-more-sugary-drinks-than-the-richest-which-is-why-soda-taxes-could-help-reduce-gaping-health-inequalities-142345 https://theconversation.com/poorest-americans-drink-a-lot-mo...
  - etchalon 4y ago
    Growing up poor, my house and the houses of my friends basically had three options – milk, sugary drinks and water. And milk was rationed like it was war. Sugary drinks are cheap, shelf-stable and dense with calories. When you don't have a lot of better options for calories, they fit the bill. It's not preference, it's survival. We know that despite the difference in sugary drink consumption, obesity doesn't vary in population sets [0]: "… evidence from 4 nationally representative US surveys has shown that populations who frequently consume sugar-sweetened beverages do not have a higher obesity rate or risk than populations who infrequently consume these beverages." … which makes sense if sugary drinks are replacing calories that would otherwise be found in better foods. I'd recommend spending some time with working-class people before adopting any belief which treats them as fundamentally different than higher-income people in terms of preferences. [0]:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957908/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957908/
    - maria2 4y ago
      Sugary beverages have been correlated with obesity and weight gain in multiple other studies, however. One thing that’s interesting having read a few of these is that there are often contradictory results when doing meta-analysis of multiple studies. Having empathy on a subject is definitely important. But it’s also important not to take an argument personally and not let personal anecdotes influence you more than they warrant. We’re not really talking about every poor person here and we’re not talking about your childhood friends. We’re mostly talking in generalizations about broad demographic trends. Random study on obesity’s correlation with sugary drinks: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862465/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862465/
      - etchalon 4y ago
        The importance of the study I linked is that it examined consumption in low-income populations, and not the broader public. As my point was that sugary drinks are often a form of caloric replacement, and not preference, for low-income people – as was my lived experience – the study was relevant as it's the type of result you'd expect were that to be the case. I was not arguing that sugary drinks don't contribute to obesity in the general public.
    - vondur 4y ago
      I too grew up poor and we never had soft drinks. Instead my mom would make us kool-aid on occasion. We almost exclusively ate at home, from food my mom prepared. We did have a kitchen, so if you don’t have access to a kitchen your options are limited.
  - Eextra953 4y ago
    I've followed your comments in this thread. You'd benefit from educating yourself on the subject of food deserts it is not an unknown or new subject. There are hundreds of studies that explain how and why food deserts exist and why poor people make the decision that they do.
    - maria2 4y ago
      Feel free to share any resources you find particularly illuminating.
      - autoexec 4y ago
        you may want to look here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4810442/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CSupermarket%20redlining%E2%80%9D%20is%20a%20term,to%20suburbs%20(Eisenhauer%202001) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4810442/#:~:tex.... From the stores perspective, I can imagine that there are a few reasons why it can make sense for them to move out of impoverished areas even while demand exists there. Wealthy customers who can easily travel to stores in impoverished areas are turned off by poor conditions and higher crime rates and will shop elsewhere. They may also feel less comfortable shopping in areas where the majority of the other customers are of a different race or culture. The stores and staff may themselves experience increases in theft, vandalism, and violence in low income areas. Stores can't sell as many overpriced items in low income areas where the majority of their clientele are struggling to afford necessities. It really doesn't matter that a store can make a healthy profit by serving customers who live in a low income area. If that same store feels that they could make even greater profits by being in an area with wealthier customers, then that is exactly what we must expect they will do.
        maria2 4y ago
        One of the main indicators of in the study you linked was sales volume, i.e. demand. > It really doesn't matter that a store can make a healthy profit by serving customers who live in a low income area. If that same store feels that they could make even greater profits by being in an area with wealthier customers This only holds true if a chain can open a fixed amount of stores. In reality, they can open as many stores as they want provided that the stores operate profitably.

by maria2 4y ago

etchalon 4y ago

I'm being explicit about what "demand" means, and how the economics of grocery stores intersect with things like physical space, infrastructure, government regulation, etc. lest someone think "there's not enough demand" means "poor people just don't want affordable, nutritious food." There can be plenty of demand for a quality grocery store, but not enough square footage available to support a store that sells the volume and mix of goods necessary to create a profitable business. There can be plenty of square footage, and relatively high demand but not enough literal humans in the area to support it. And there can be enough space, and enough people, but infrastructure problems which create uneven costs on the business.

maria2 4y ago
I understand what you're saying, but, a priori, how can you say the existence of food deserts is because of reason X vs. Y. For instance, the poorest Americans drink the most sugary drinks [0]. I can accept there may be other reasons for the existence of food deserts, but to outright dismiss that preferences might differ across incomes without any evidence feels like an argument made purely out of ideology. [0]: https://theconversation.com/poorest-americans-drink-a-lot-more-sugary-drinks-than-the-richest-which-is-why-soda-taxes-could-help-reduce-gaping-health-inequalities-142345 https://theconversation.com/poorest-americans-drink-a-lot-mo...
- etchalon 4y ago
  Growing up poor, my house and the houses of my friends basically had three options – milk, sugary drinks and water. And milk was rationed like it was war. Sugary drinks are cheap, shelf-stable and dense with calories. When you don't have a lot of better options for calories, they fit the bill. It's not preference, it's survival. We know that despite the difference in sugary drink consumption, obesity doesn't vary in population sets [0]: "… evidence from 4 nationally representative US surveys has shown that populations who frequently consume sugar-sweetened beverages do not have a higher obesity rate or risk than populations who infrequently consume these beverages." … which makes sense if sugary drinks are replacing calories that would otherwise be found in better foods. I'd recommend spending some time with working-class people before adopting any belief which treats them as fundamentally different than higher-income people in terms of preferences. [0]:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957908/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957908/
  - maria2 4y ago
    Sugary beverages have been correlated with obesity and weight gain in multiple other studies, however. One thing that’s interesting having read a few of these is that there are often contradictory results when doing meta-analysis of multiple studies. Having empathy on a subject is definitely important. But it’s also important not to take an argument personally and not let personal anecdotes influence you more than they warrant. We’re not really talking about every poor person here and we’re not talking about your childhood friends. We’re mostly talking in generalizations about broad demographic trends. Random study on obesity’s correlation with sugary drinks: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862465/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862465/
    - etchalon 4y ago
      The importance of the study I linked is that it examined consumption in low-income populations, and not the broader public. As my point was that sugary drinks are often a form of caloric replacement, and not preference, for low-income people – as was my lived experience – the study was relevant as it's the type of result you'd expect were that to be the case. I was not arguing that sugary drinks don't contribute to obesity in the general public.
  - vondur 4y ago
    I too grew up poor and we never had soft drinks. Instead my mom would make us kool-aid on occasion. We almost exclusively ate at home, from food my mom prepared. We did have a kitchen, so if you don’t have access to a kitchen your options are limited.
- Eextra953 4y ago
  I've followed your comments in this thread. You'd benefit from educating yourself on the subject of food deserts it is not an unknown or new subject. There are hundreds of studies that explain how and why food deserts exist and why poor people make the decision that they do.
  - maria2 4y ago
    Feel free to share any resources you find particularly illuminating.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      you may want to look here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4810442/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CSupermarket%20redlining%E2%80%9D%20is%20a%20term,to%20suburbs%20(Eisenhauer%202001) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4810442/#:~:tex.... From the stores perspective, I can imagine that there are a few reasons why it can make sense for them to move out of impoverished areas even while demand exists there. Wealthy customers who can easily travel to stores in impoverished areas are turned off by poor conditions and higher crime rates and will shop elsewhere. They may also feel less comfortable shopping in areas where the majority of the other customers are of a different race or culture. The stores and staff may themselves experience increases in theft, vandalism, and violence in low income areas. Stores can't sell as many overpriced items in low income areas where the majority of their clientele are struggling to afford necessities. It really doesn't matter that a store can make a healthy profit by serving customers who live in a low income area. If that same store feels that they could make even greater profits by being in an area with wealthier customers, then that is exactly what we must expect they will do.
      - maria2 4y ago
        One of the main indicators of in the study you linked was sales volume, i.e. demand. > It really doesn't matter that a store can make a healthy profit by serving customers who live in a low income area. If that same store feels that they could make even greater profits by being in an area with wealthier customers This only holds true if a chain can open a fixed amount of stores. In reality, they can open as many stores as they want provided that the stores operate profitably.