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You're collapsing "demand" into "they must not want it" instead of "the size of the demand doesn't match the minimal demand needed for the economics." Grocery

You're collapsing "demand" into "they must not want it" instead of "the size of the demand doesn't match the minimal demand needed for the economics." Grocery stores are very low-margin. They basically only work at scale. You need a lot of space, and a lot of customers. Those two factors combine to eliminate numerous areas where demand for the product otherwise exists. Not enough customers and/or not enough physical space available. And constrained by either space, or customer count, you've got some hard choices to make. Produce, fruit, fresh meat, etc are not high-profit items for grocery stores (They're often high-margin, but spoilage destroys net profit). You need a certain amount of turn-over to make the math work. On top of turn-over, you need to be selling a lot of high-profit goods to make up for all the offsets in a grocery business. In low-income neighborhoods, how many customers will you have for deli products with high-markups? Or Prepared Foods? Hell, with EBT rules, a lot of high-margin goods can't even be bought by your core customer. You can't buy alcohol with EBT, for instance, and that's a huge chunk of profit for modern grocery stores. And without all those healthy margin items, your labor costs need to be incredibly low. What are you left with? Shelf-stable, low-quantity, bulk-purchased items in a densely packed store with the lowest possible labor costs. And what is a Dollar Store?

maria2 4y ago
This sounds very smart, but essentially what you're saying is that there isn't enough demand to support a store that sells fresh produce. Yes, the ability to profitably run a store is based off of margin and volume. Both of those are driven by demand.
- etchalon 4y ago
  I'm being explicit about what "demand" means, and how the economics of grocery stores intersect with things like physical space, infrastructure, government regulation, etc. lest someone think "there's not enough demand" means "poor people just don't want affordable, nutritious food." There can be plenty of demand for a quality grocery store, but not enough square footage available to support a store that sells the volume and mix of goods necessary to create a profitable business. There can be plenty of square footage, and relatively high demand but not enough literal humans in the area to support it. And there can be enough space, and enough people, but infrastructure problems which create uneven costs on the business.
  - maria2 4y ago
    I understand what you're saying, but, a priori, how can you say the existence of food deserts is because of reason X vs. Y. For instance, the poorest Americans drink the most sugary drinks [0]. I can accept there may be other reasons for the existence of food deserts, but to outright dismiss that preferences might differ across incomes without any evidence feels like an argument made purely out of ideology. [0]: https://theconversation.com/poorest-americans-drink-a-lot-more-sugary-drinks-than-the-richest-which-is-why-soda-taxes-could-help-reduce-gaping-health-inequalities-142345 https://theconversation.com/poorest-americans-drink-a-lot-mo...
    - etchalon 4y ago
      Growing up poor, my house and the houses of my friends basically had three options – milk, sugary drinks and water. And milk was rationed like it was war. Sugary drinks are cheap, shelf-stable and dense with calories. When you don't have a lot of better options for calories, they fit the bill. It's not preference, it's survival. We know that despite the difference in sugary drink consumption, obesity doesn't vary in population sets [0]: "… evidence from 4 nationally representative US surveys has shown that populations who frequently consume sugar-sweetened beverages do not have a higher obesity rate or risk than populations who infrequently consume these beverages." … which makes sense if sugary drinks are replacing calories that would otherwise be found in better foods. I'd recommend spending some time with working-class people before adopting any belief which treats them as fundamentally different than higher-income people in terms of preferences. [0]:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957908/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957908/
      - maria2 4y ago
        Sugary beverages have been correlated with obesity and weight gain in multiple other studies, however. One thing that’s interesting having read a few of these is that there are often contradictory results when doing meta-analysis of multiple studies. Having empathy on a subject is definitely important. But it’s also important not to take an argument personally and not let personal anecdotes influence you more than they warrant. We’re not really talking about every poor person here and we’re not talking about your childhood friends. We’re mostly talking in generalizations about broad demographic trends. Random study on obesity’s correlation with sugary drinks: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862465/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862465/
panick21_ 4y ago
The US perspective is trong here. > Grocery stores are very low-margin. They basically only work at scale. > You need a lot of space, and a lot of customers. That contradicts most of human history and is still wrong today. In fact for most of history most people walked to a small store that had some fresh products outside and you just pick them up. The problem is that in the US you force stores into these commercial zones that are separated from housing zones and force people to drive there. Countries that are much poorer then the US have systems where almost everybody can get pretty easy access to a store and that store usually had fresh products. Me and a friend walk threw some back allies in Haifa Israel and walked right up to a little store with some fresh fruit and most of what you need. Yet, such stores don't exist in US suberbia. These are all urban planning issues.
- jjav 4y ago
  > Yet, such stores don't exist in US suberbia. I'm living here in US suburbia (California) and it is literally (measured using google maps) 600ft to the nearest store that sells some groceries and 1300ft to the nearest full-size supermarket. And the second full-size supermaket is about 2000ft away.
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    That may be the case in your location, but you can go look at zonening maps and its not the case. Many city have 80 or sometimes 90% of R1 zoning where no grocery stores are allowed. And it also shows up in data showing how many less then 5mile trips are maybe by car in the US and grocery shopping is one of the major drivers of such trips.
  - escapedmoose 4y ago
    Living in several areas of US suburbia as well, I was nearing my 30s before I lived in a place with grocery stores that I could even bike to, let alone walk. My quality of life increased drastically when I was finally able to walk/bike to the store. Walkable suburbia exists in the US, but it’s not the norm. Don’t take it for granted :)
FrontierPsych 4y ago
I've looked at food deserts on maps. There are places that have no good grocery stores around, but there ARE good grocery stores 5 or 8 miles away. If you have a car, drive there. If you don't have a car, find someone - friend, church - who does and stock up when you go there. My relatives lived in a food desert, but it was not in a city. They lived in the middle of nowhere. Rural. They were in an actual food desert, they had to drive 1 hour each way once a month to stock up at Costco. But they didn't bitch about how they were in a "food desert". There are always solutions. They might take extra work...but so what? Here in California, we have a store called The 99 Cent Only Store, which is a dollar store. A dollar store is where almost everything is a dollar. They HAVE had to raise their prices because of inflation, but so have all other grocery stores. A good dollar store is awesome to save money, if you buy the right stuff. It is awesome. I can buy blackberries there for $1, while at a regular supermarket they charge $3 or more. This is a 300% return on one's money to buy it at the dollar store. I can go into a dollar store and fill 3 grocery bags full of food that would only be half of one bag at a regular supermarket. Mine has all kinds of other cool stuff, too. Buy a can opener for $1, rather than $5 or $8 at a supermarket - that is a 500% to 800% return on your money right there. Wouldn't you like to get 500-800% return on your money in the stock market? That's exactly what it is, exactly the same. Except if you sell your stocks, you have to pay taxes on them, but when you save money, you pay no taxes on saved money.
- feet 4y ago
  It isn't a return if the goods are low quality and last 1/8 as long. Same with low quality food that ruins health, the cost is externalized to health care
  - FrontierPsych 4y ago
    Low quality foodstuffs are available anywhere, even in the wealthiest communities - cheetos, twinkies, cookies, crackers, etc. One can make poor food choices anywhere, that is for sure. Anyone canget the cost externalized to healthcare. The point is that it is a choice to buy fruits, vegetables, eggs, etc, rather than cookies. Everyone knows what a poor diet is at this point. Who doesn't know potato chips are not healthy, even in the most poverty-stricken areas? Who doesn't know that brocolli is healthier than Sugar Puffs cerial. Nobody, that's who.

maria2 4y ago

This sounds very smart, but essentially what you're saying is that there isn't enough demand to support a store that sells fresh produce. Yes, the ability to profitably run a store is based off of margin and volume. Both of those are driven by demand.

etchalon 4y ago
I'm being explicit about what "demand" means, and how the economics of grocery stores intersect with things like physical space, infrastructure, government regulation, etc. lest someone think "there's not enough demand" means "poor people just don't want affordable, nutritious food." There can be plenty of demand for a quality grocery store, but not enough square footage available to support a store that sells the volume and mix of goods necessary to create a profitable business. There can be plenty of square footage, and relatively high demand but not enough literal humans in the area to support it. And there can be enough space, and enough people, but infrastructure problems which create uneven costs on the business.
- maria2 4y ago
  I understand what you're saying, but, a priori, how can you say the existence of food deserts is because of reason X vs. Y. For instance, the poorest Americans drink the most sugary drinks [0]. I can accept there may be other reasons for the existence of food deserts, but to outright dismiss that preferences might differ across incomes without any evidence feels like an argument made purely out of ideology. [0]: https://theconversation.com/poorest-americans-drink-a-lot-more-sugary-drinks-than-the-richest-which-is-why-soda-taxes-could-help-reduce-gaping-health-inequalities-142345 https://theconversation.com/poorest-americans-drink-a-lot-mo...
  - etchalon 4y ago
    Growing up poor, my house and the houses of my friends basically had three options – milk, sugary drinks and water. And milk was rationed like it was war. Sugary drinks are cheap, shelf-stable and dense with calories. When you don't have a lot of better options for calories, they fit the bill. It's not preference, it's survival. We know that despite the difference in sugary drink consumption, obesity doesn't vary in population sets [0]: "… evidence from 4 nationally representative US surveys has shown that populations who frequently consume sugar-sweetened beverages do not have a higher obesity rate or risk than populations who infrequently consume these beverages." … which makes sense if sugary drinks are replacing calories that would otherwise be found in better foods. I'd recommend spending some time with working-class people before adopting any belief which treats them as fundamentally different than higher-income people in terms of preferences. [0]:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957908/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957908/
    - maria2 4y ago
      Sugary beverages have been correlated with obesity and weight gain in multiple other studies, however. One thing that’s interesting having read a few of these is that there are often contradictory results when doing meta-analysis of multiple studies. Having empathy on a subject is definitely important. But it’s also important not to take an argument personally and not let personal anecdotes influence you more than they warrant. We’re not really talking about every poor person here and we’re not talking about your childhood friends. We’re mostly talking in generalizations about broad demographic trends. Random study on obesity’s correlation with sugary drinks: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862465/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862465/

panick21_ 4y ago

The US perspective is trong here. > Grocery stores are very low-margin. They basically only work at scale. > You need a lot of space, and a lot of customers. That contradicts most of human history and is still wrong today. In fact for most of history most people walked to a small store that had some fresh products outside and you just pick them up. The problem is that in the US you force stores into these commercial zones that are separated from housing zones and force people to drive there. Countries that are much poorer then the US have systems where almost everybody can get pretty easy access to a store and that store usually had fresh products. Me and a friend walk threw some back allies in Haifa Israel and walked right up to a little store with some fresh fruit and most of what you need. Yet, such stores don't exist in US suberbia. These are all urban planning issues.

jjav 4y ago
> Yet, such stores don't exist in US suberbia. I'm living here in US suburbia (California) and it is literally (measured using google maps) 600ft to the nearest store that sells some groceries and 1300ft to the nearest full-size supermarket. And the second full-size supermaket is about 2000ft away.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  That may be the case in your location, but you can go look at zonening maps and its not the case. Many city have 80 or sometimes 90% of R1 zoning where no grocery stores are allowed. And it also shows up in data showing how many less then 5mile trips are maybe by car in the US and grocery shopping is one of the major drivers of such trips.
- escapedmoose 4y ago
  Living in several areas of US suburbia as well, I was nearing my 30s before I lived in a place with grocery stores that I could even bike to, let alone walk. My quality of life increased drastically when I was finally able to walk/bike to the store. Walkable suburbia exists in the US, but it’s not the norm. Don’t take it for granted :)

FrontierPsych 4y ago

I've looked at food deserts on maps. There are places that have no good grocery stores around, but there ARE good grocery stores 5 or 8 miles away. If you have a car, drive there. If you don't have a car, find someone - friend, church - who does and stock up when you go there. My relatives lived in a food desert, but it was not in a city. They lived in the middle of nowhere. Rural. They were in an actual food desert, they had to drive 1 hour each way once a month to stock up at Costco. But they didn't bitch about how they were in a "food desert". There are always solutions. They might take extra work...but so what? Here in California, we have a store called The 99 Cent Only Store, which is a dollar store. A dollar store is where almost everything is a dollar. They HAVE had to raise their prices because of inflation, but so have all other grocery stores. A good dollar store is awesome to save money, if you buy the right stuff. It is awesome. I can buy blackberries there for $1, while at a regular supermarket they charge $3 or more. This is a 300% return on one's money to buy it at the dollar store. I can go into a dollar store and fill 3 grocery bags full of food that would only be half of one bag at a regular supermarket. Mine has all kinds of other cool stuff, too. Buy a can opener for $1, rather than $5 or $8 at a supermarket - that is a 500% to 800% return on your money right there. Wouldn't you like to get 500-800% return on your money in the stock market? That's exactly what it is, exactly the same. Except if you sell your stocks, you have to pay taxes on them, but when you save money, you pay no taxes on saved money.

feet 4y ago
It isn't a return if the goods are low quality and last 1/8 as long. Same with low quality food that ruins health, the cost is externalized to health care
- FrontierPsych 4y ago
  Low quality foodstuffs are available anywhere, even in the wealthiest communities - cheetos, twinkies, cookies, crackers, etc. One can make poor food choices anywhere, that is for sure. Anyone canget the cost externalized to healthcare. The point is that it is a choice to buy fruits, vegetables, eggs, etc, rather than cookies. Everyone knows what a poor diet is at this point. Who doesn't know potato chips are not healthy, even in the most poverty-stricken areas? Who doesn't know that brocolli is healthier than Sugar Puffs cerial. Nobody, that's who.