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While Mozilla is best known for Firefox, they already have a lot of experience in another software for a federated protocol : Thunderbird for e-mail. Are you s

While Mozilla is best known for Firefox, they already have a lot of experience in another software for a federated protocol : Thunderbird for e-mail. Are you seriously asking why they would be interested in the Fediverse ?? Were you questioning Opera (now Vivaldi) when they were experimenting with all those weird browser features ?

quanticle 4y ago
Are you *seriously* asking why they would be interested in the Fediverse ?? I think it's entirely valid to point out that for the last decade, Mozilla has been distracted with side projects that haven't gone anywhere (Firefox OS, Persona, etc), while the browser has languished. And now we see Mozilla pursuing yet another side project that, let's face it, will probably die an unmourned death in two or three years, while Firefox still languishes. Furthermore, given that Mozilla very recently had a round of layoffs, ostensibly to cut the fat and refocus on the browser, where are they going to get the developer resources to work on this new project?
- wasmitnetzen 4y ago
  Imagine if Firefox OS would have gone somewhere. We would have an entirely open mobile OS right now, breaking up the duopoly of Google/Apple. I don't blame them for trying.
  - quanticle 4y ago
    I do. Imagine if Mozilla, instead of trying to make another mobile OS to challenge the Apple/Google duopoly, had focused on making Firefox a top-tier browser, both on desktop and mobile? We might be in a situation today where, certainly on Android, there would be more than one option for a mobile browser. We are rapidly regressing towards where the web was in 2002, only with Google Chrome taking the place of Internet Explorer. Could Mozilla have prevented this by focusing on Firefox? I don't know. What I do know is that they didn't even try.
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      What makes you say that Firefox isn't a top tier browser ? Including on Android ? (Where the cards are stacked against it, better dump Android at this point anyway.) This goes double for when Firefox OS was around : 7-9 years ago.
      - quanticle 4y ago
        If Firefox were a top tier browser it wouldn't have bugs that were old enough to legally purchase alcohol in the United States [1]. Or have bugs that are old enough to have a drivers' license [2]. It wouldn't have decade-old bugs that break AJAX forms [3]. It would correctly support prefetching links [4]. And those are just the outstanding bugs. In terms of performance, Firefox is still slower than Chrome. It still has more UI jank, even on Linux. The new plugin API still doesn't give extensions the same level of functionality that they had with the old API, despite years of promising otherwise. Its responses to interaction media queries are inconsistent, necessitating the creation of a test page [5] to determine what its actual responses are (W3C specifications? what are those?). No, Firefox is not a top-tier browser. It's more privacy-preserving than Chrome, which is why I use it, but I will never claim that Firefox is a better browser. [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10212 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10212 [2]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317081 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317081 [3]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=654072 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=654072 [4]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1527334 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1527334 [5]: https://demos.obormot.net/interaction-media-query-test https://demos.obormot.net/interaction-media-query-test EDIT: better dump Android at this point anyway Dump Android for what, exactly? An even more user-hostile platform, like iOS?
        BlueTemplar 4y ago
        Being worse than Chrome doesn't mean it's not top tier. Agreed about the old loss of functionality. At least performance is better now. No, most people should be using a dumbphone these days, at least until we hackers get our shit together enough that alternatives Librem/Pinephone are good enough.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  Good point about the layoffs, but, like startups, most side projects never go anywhere, why would you expect them to ? Last I checked, the average failure rate of software projects was 90 % (which is a good thing, other kinds of projects, like bridges, can't afford to, and have to be "over"engineered).
fanso99 4y ago
Yes. I don't think they should invest into social media experiments. In my opinion they did a horrible job at that so far (Pocket was promising but is unusable because of its "social sharing" confusion). Social media introduces wrong incentives. [reposting my earlier reply] Furthermore, I imagine the reason they are so keen to be a player in social media is because someone at Mozilla really promotes the idea that there is a community around Firefox (sure, Thunderbird, MDN, etc). There is no community. People who use a browser are not a community: we don't need a place to "hang out" because we all use Firefox. It's a ridiculous aspirational thinking that only moves Mozilla further into irrelevancy.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  Why not, worked pretty well for Opera/Vivaldi despite them being closed source ! Also, ok, if not social media as a Mastodon instance, then what kind of project do you suggest they should start in order to acclimate themselves to the Fediverse ?
  - fanso99 4y ago
    I can't tell if you are trolling or are serious. Neither Opera nor Vivaldi have succeeded as social media platforms. They experiment a lot with different features but remain a minuscule niche browser. If that's the inspiration for Mozilla - then sure, they should go all in into social media. > in order to acclimate themselves to the Fediverse What does that mean? What should Ableton Live or Pixelmator Pro do to acclimate themselves to the Fediverse?
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      Because it's a Web standard that Mozilla should pay attention to ?

quanticle 4y ago

Are you *seriously* asking why they would be interested in the Fediverse ?? I think it's entirely valid to point out that for the last decade, Mozilla has been distracted with side projects that haven't gone anywhere (Firefox OS, Persona, etc), while the browser has languished. And now we see Mozilla pursuing yet another side project that, let's face it, will probably die an unmourned death in two or three years, while Firefox still languishes. Furthermore, given that Mozilla very recently had a round of layoffs, ostensibly to cut the fat and refocus on the browser, where are they going to get the developer resources to work on this new project?

wasmitnetzen 4y ago
Imagine if Firefox OS would have gone somewhere. We would have an entirely open mobile OS right now, breaking up the duopoly of Google/Apple. I don't blame them for trying.
- quanticle 4y ago
  I do. Imagine if Mozilla, instead of trying to make another mobile OS to challenge the Apple/Google duopoly, had focused on making Firefox a top-tier browser, both on desktop and mobile? We might be in a situation today where, certainly on Android, there would be more than one option for a mobile browser. We are rapidly regressing towards where the web was in 2002, only with Google Chrome taking the place of Internet Explorer. Could Mozilla have prevented this by focusing on Firefox? I don't know. What I do know is that they didn't even try.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    What makes you say that Firefox isn't a top tier browser ? Including on Android ? (Where the cards are stacked against it, better dump Android at this point anyway.) This goes double for when Firefox OS was around : 7-9 years ago.
    - quanticle 4y ago
      If Firefox were a top tier browser it wouldn't have bugs that were old enough to legally purchase alcohol in the United States [1]. Or have bugs that are old enough to have a drivers' license [2]. It wouldn't have decade-old bugs that break AJAX forms [3]. It would correctly support prefetching links [4]. And those are just the outstanding bugs. In terms of performance, Firefox is still slower than Chrome. It still has more UI jank, even on Linux. The new plugin API still doesn't give extensions the same level of functionality that they had with the old API, despite years of promising otherwise. Its responses to interaction media queries are inconsistent, necessitating the creation of a test page [5] to determine what its actual responses are (W3C specifications? what are those?). No, Firefox is not a top-tier browser. It's more privacy-preserving than Chrome, which is why I use it, but I will never claim that Firefox is a better browser. [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10212 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10212 [2]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317081 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317081 [3]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=654072 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=654072 [4]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1527334 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1527334 [5]: https://demos.obormot.net/interaction-media-query-test https://demos.obormot.net/interaction-media-query-test EDIT: better dump Android at this point anyway Dump Android for what, exactly? An even more user-hostile platform, like iOS?
      - BlueTemplar 4y ago
        Being worse than Chrome doesn't mean it's not top tier. Agreed about the old loss of functionality. At least performance is better now. No, most people should be using a dumbphone these days, at least until we hackers get our shit together enough that alternatives Librem/Pinephone are good enough.
BlueTemplar 4y ago
Good point about the layoffs, but, like startups, most side projects never go anywhere, why would you expect them to ? Last I checked, the average failure rate of software projects was 90 % (which is a good thing, other kinds of projects, like bridges, can't afford to, and have to be "over"engineered).

fanso99 4y ago

Yes. I don't think they should invest into social media experiments. In my opinion they did a horrible job at that so far (Pocket was promising but is unusable because of its "social sharing" confusion). Social media introduces wrong incentives. [reposting my earlier reply] Furthermore, I imagine the reason they are so keen to be a player in social media is because someone at Mozilla really promotes the idea that there is a community around Firefox (sure, Thunderbird, MDN, etc). There is no community. People who use a browser are not a community: we don't need a place to "hang out" because we all use Firefox. It's a ridiculous aspirational thinking that only moves Mozilla further into irrelevancy.

BlueTemplar 4y ago
Why not, worked pretty well for Opera/Vivaldi despite them being closed source ! Also, ok, if not social media as a Mastodon instance, then what kind of project do you suggest they should start in order to acclimate themselves to the Fediverse ?
- fanso99 4y ago
  I can't tell if you are trolling or are serious. Neither Opera nor Vivaldi have succeeded as social media platforms. They experiment a lot with different features but remain a minuscule niche browser. If that's the inspiration for Mozilla - then sure, they should go all in into social media. > in order to acclimate themselves to the Fediverse What does that mean? What should Ableton Live or Pixelmator Pro do to acclimate themselves to the Fediverse?
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    Because it's a Web standard that Mozilla should pay attention to ?