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You’re talking as if this was just some social construct, when it’s absolutely not. If a woman doesn’t have children by a certain age, then she will never have

You’re talking as if this was just some social construct, when it’s absolutely not. If a woman doesn’t have children by a certain age, then she will never have children. The idea that it will become impossible to have children is an intimidating thought for many women, even if they don’t necessarily have immediate plans to have them, and the appeal of committing to a relationship with a women who cannot have children is reduced for men (again, even if they don’t have any immediate plans for children). Women get left behind by biological realities. Pretending this is just some form of social tyranny is clearly nonsense.

emodendroket 4y ago
The age is not 25 and, anyway, who says being a mother is every woman's life's ambition?
- AmericanChopper 4y ago
  I didn’t say it was every woman’s ambition. But many people reevaluate how they feel about the idea when they are forced to confront the fact that the choice will soon be taken away from them. This doesn’t happen at age 25, but probably starts to become more apparent for many people around that age. Keep in mind it often takes years of planning to go from deciding you want to have children to actually having them.
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    And the solution that's been arrived on is robbing women more fundamentally of any choice at all about what kind of life they will live. I think we're better off with the risk that maybe some people will wish they'd tried motherhood earlier than the alternative.
    - AmericanChopper 4y ago
      That’s clearly not true, because this issue still exists in societies where women have full autonomy and legal protections. It’s created by biological realities, not social conventions. It’s not simply a trendy sentiment that can be bucked (which is the claim made in the comment I originally replied to).
      - emodendroket 4y ago
        I'm not sure what is clearly not true but many women marry past 25 and have children.
  - standardUser 4y ago
    Most women I know had kids in their early-to-late thirties. Maybe you need to get out in the world and interact with more and different kinds of people, because it appears you perspective is severely limited.
    - squabble 4y ago
      The average age in the US is 26. Maybe your perspective is limited?
      - pixxel 4y ago
        > Maybe your perspective is limited? Almost certainly is. I wouldn’t be surprised if “most women I know” are women who work for corporations.
Zagill 4y ago
Why should anyone feel pressured to have children at all? That's a pretty horrible way to view the world, you're acting as if a woman's value is decreased once she can't have children anymore. That sounds a lot like social tyranny to me.
- AmericanChopper 4y ago
  I’m not suggesting anybody is pressured to have children. Only that those who want to have to do so by a certain age, and the among those who do not or who are unsure, some portion of them decide that they do want to when confronted with the reality that they will no longer be able to. > you're acting as if a woman's value is decreased once she can't have children anymore. That sounds a lot like social tyranny to me. A woman’s value as a partner would be decreased for anybody who wanted to have children, or who at least wanted the option of having children. The idea that if you want a partner, you’re going to have to attract one, is not a tyranny. There are some people who think that this is tyrannical, for instance the incel community, but they are clearly wrong.
  - standardUser 4y ago
    "A woman’s value as a partner would be decreased for anybody who wanted to have children" Again, please explain why this is any concern of yours. If you want to seek out and help woman who voluntarily want help finding a partner and having children, get at it. Otherwise, supporting a system that coerces or forces young people into decisions against their will is a form of tyranny.
- HaroldIs88 4y ago
- HuwytGreen 4y ago
  - foogazi 4y ago
    > There is a strong biological impetus to, a great value to her nation Biological impetuses aside - what is a nation ? And why should any individual care about it more than one self My countries will continue to exist whether I have kids or not
bloppe 4y ago
Clearly it's easier to conceive in your 20's for both men and women, but menopause (which tends to happen around age 50) is not necessarily the end of the story for women. Women can often become pregnant after menopause with their own pre-menopausal frozen eggs. If not, they can more often use a surrogate to bring their frozen egg to term. This can cost up to $40k for the procedures and storage, which is expensive but getting cheaper over time. I'd be surprised if girls being born now are ever nearly as anxious about menopause as today's quinquagenarians.
standardUser 4y ago
"If a woman doesn’t have children by a certain age, then she will never have children" In what universe is this any of your concern? Not this one. And of course it's tyrannical. People with little or no power (children, very young adults) are being forced, coerced, threatened by the power structures in their lives to make decisions they don't want to make. This is nearly a textbook definition of tyranny.
- bloppe 4y ago
  I would point out that it's of great concern to many women, often without any significant imposition by men.
  - standardUser 4y ago
    I've never heard of a society that coerces women into not getting married and having children. And the imposition is by adult women and men against younger women and men, not simply men against women.
    - bloppe 4y ago
      I absolutely do not agree with stigmatizing child freedom, or any notion of "spinsterhood", I just think we can acknowledge that this is a common concern with or without coercion, which is hard to measure and hard even to define.
- AmericanChopper 4y ago
  > This sentiment seems to be near-universal in all but the most "progressive" societies (and even in some parts of those). In what universe is this sentiment any of your concern? I presume you imagine this one? I’m simply pointing out your mistake, which is that this is not simply some sentiment that can be modified with the appropriate social conditioning. It is the ordinary human reaction to undeniable biological realities. Nowhere in my comment did I suggest that this was an appropriate basis for actual tyrannical behaviour, so please don’t try to gaslight me into defending such a position, because it won’t work. As I have said elsewhere, even in the most progressive countries in the world, this is still a ubiquitous concern.

emodendroket 4y ago

The age is not 25 and, anyway, who says being a mother is every woman's life's ambition?

AmericanChopper 4y ago
I didn’t say it was every woman’s ambition. But many people reevaluate how they feel about the idea when they are forced to confront the fact that the choice will soon be taken away from them. This doesn’t happen at age 25, but probably starts to become more apparent for many people around that age. Keep in mind it often takes years of planning to go from deciding you want to have children to actually having them.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  And the solution that's been arrived on is robbing women more fundamentally of any choice at all about what kind of life they will live. I think we're better off with the risk that maybe some people will wish they'd tried motherhood earlier than the alternative.
  - AmericanChopper 4y ago
    That’s clearly not true, because this issue still exists in societies where women have full autonomy and legal protections. It’s created by biological realities, not social conventions. It’s not simply a trendy sentiment that can be bucked (which is the claim made in the comment I originally replied to).
    - emodendroket 4y ago
      I'm not sure what is clearly not true but many women marry past 25 and have children.
- standardUser 4y ago
  Most women I know had kids in their early-to-late thirties. Maybe you need to get out in the world and interact with more and different kinds of people, because it appears you perspective is severely limited.
  - squabble 4y ago
    The average age in the US is 26. Maybe your perspective is limited?
    - pixxel 4y ago
      > Maybe your perspective is limited? Almost certainly is. I wouldn’t be surprised if “most women I know” are women who work for corporations.

Zagill 4y ago

Why should anyone feel pressured to have children at all? That's a pretty horrible way to view the world, you're acting as if a woman's value is decreased once she can't have children anymore. That sounds a lot like social tyranny to me.

AmericanChopper 4y ago
I’m not suggesting anybody is pressured to have children. Only that those who want to have to do so by a certain age, and the among those who do not or who are unsure, some portion of them decide that they do want to when confronted with the reality that they will no longer be able to. > you're acting as if a woman's value is decreased once she can't have children anymore. That sounds a lot like social tyranny to me. A woman’s value as a partner would be decreased for anybody who wanted to have children, or who at least wanted the option of having children. The idea that if you want a partner, you’re going to have to attract one, is not a tyranny. There are some people who think that this is tyrannical, for instance the incel community, but they are clearly wrong.
- standardUser 4y ago
  "A woman’s value as a partner would be decreased for anybody who wanted to have children" Again, please explain why this is any concern of yours. If you want to seek out and help woman who voluntarily want help finding a partner and having children, get at it. Otherwise, supporting a system that coerces or forces young people into decisions against their will is a form of tyranny.
HaroldIs88 4y ago
HuwytGreen 4y ago
- foogazi 4y ago
  > There is a strong biological impetus to, a great value to her nation Biological impetuses aside - what is a nation ? And why should any individual care about it more than one self My countries will continue to exist whether I have kids or not

bloppe 4y ago

Clearly it's easier to conceive in your 20's for both men and women, but menopause (which tends to happen around age 50) is not necessarily the end of the story for women. Women can often become pregnant after menopause with their own pre-menopausal frozen eggs. If not, they can more often use a surrogate to bring their frozen egg to term. This can cost up to $40k for the procedures and storage, which is expensive but getting cheaper over time. I'd be surprised if girls being born now are ever nearly as anxious about menopause as today's quinquagenarians.

standardUser 4y ago

"If a woman doesn’t have children by a certain age, then she will never have children" In what universe is this any of your concern? Not this one. And of course it's tyrannical. People with little or no power (children, very young adults) are being forced, coerced, threatened by the power structures in their lives to make decisions they don't want to make. This is nearly a textbook definition of tyranny.

bloppe 4y ago
I would point out that it's of great concern to many women, often without any significant imposition by men.
- standardUser 4y ago
  I've never heard of a society that coerces women into not getting married and having children. And the imposition is by adult women and men against younger women and men, not simply men against women.
  - bloppe 4y ago
    I absolutely do not agree with stigmatizing child freedom, or any notion of "spinsterhood", I just think we can acknowledge that this is a common concern with or without coercion, which is hard to measure and hard even to define.
AmericanChopper 4y ago
> This sentiment seems to be near-universal in all but the most "progressive" societies (and even in some parts of those). In what universe is this sentiment any of your concern? I presume you imagine this one? I’m simply pointing out your mistake, which is that this is not simply some sentiment that can be modified with the appropriate social conditioning. It is the ordinary human reaction to undeniable biological realities. Nowhere in my comment did I suggest that this was an appropriate basis for actual tyrannical behaviour, so please don’t try to gaslight me into defending such a position, because it won’t work. As I have said elsewhere, even in the most progressive countries in the world, this is still a ubiquitous concern.