4 ms·

So I dated Kazakh woman for a while. This is true, but the title is misleading. In a nutshell, when two people elope, it's officially considered a kidnapping,

So I dated Kazakh woman for a while. This is true, but the title is misleading. In a nutshell, when two people elope, it's officially considered a kidnapping, to save face for the family. But no one get prosecuted and everyone knows what's going on. She said the only realistic thing, in the movie Borat, was the kidnapping scene, and even that was outlandish. Gonna go read the article now and see if I need to make any updates.

charlangas 4y ago
In Mexico it is common to say that a woman was stolen or kidnapped ("Se la robó") when a couple elopes. Curious that the same face-saving mechanism is common in other parts of the world. As a boy whenever I heard a woman had been "stolen" I couldn't help but picture a man carrying her off on his shoulders in the middle of the night while she helplessly tried to get away. Took me a while to understand it was usually consensual.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Curious that the same face-saving mechanism is common in other parts of the world. In many cases, it is just preserving language describing the act given the prior assumption that the woman was property of the male head of household until disposed of by them in marriage, devoid of her own agency, while the man attempting to marry her without that consent was fully possessed of moral agency and thus had stolen her from her appropriate custodian.
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    In the case of Kyrgyzstan that doesn't seem to be a "prior" assumption.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      I meant that as why it would be common where the current use is primarily “face saving”, but even in those cases it is still bowing to the continued social relevance of the same attitude, because it only saves face if you assume that abduction is less of an affront to norms than a woman exercising agency with regard to marriage, so “prior” is something of an exaggeration in any case.
      - emodendroket 4y ago
        OK, point taken.
- ahazred8ta 4y ago
  https://youtu.be/tT03T7SlLb8?t=3235 https://youtu.be/tT03T7SlLb8?t=3235 There was a scene in The Emerald Forest (1985): Boy taps girl lightly with ceremonial club. "No, do it right!" (WHOMP)
ahazred8ta 4y ago
The Kyrgyz term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ala_kachuu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ala_kachuu covers elopement, certain kinds of arranged marriage, and actual kidnapping. YMMV
prettyStandard 4y ago
Ok this is a long article, and I don't have time to read the whole thing. But it is reminding me of several very dark things she said. One was how women do not refuse sex, and yes women get beat if they burn the food. Yikes. So yes there are some serious problems there, but do take it with a grain of salt. Some people are lucky.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  She interviews several people who say this -- "well, it was basically OK for me, so I think this practice is fine." But I find it hard to trust such perspectives as truly considered if the alternative is living for decades with the conviction that your husband did something truly monstrous to you and now you're just waking up next to him every morning like it never happened.
D13Fd 4y ago
Interesting that kidnapping is considered face-saving as compared to a private marriage.
emodendroket 4y ago
> Gonna go read the article now and see if I need to make any updates. Yeah I'd say the murder the story centers on and several other stories recounted don't fit what you said too well. The article also calls into question how voluntary these "voluntary" kidnappings truly are in their social context.
- prettyStandard 4y ago
  Take a look at my second comment. I think with my first comment you got what was literally said to me. My second comment is me recalling and re-reading between the lines.

charlangas 4y ago

In Mexico it is common to say that a woman was stolen or kidnapped ("Se la robó") when a couple elopes. Curious that the same face-saving mechanism is common in other parts of the world. As a boy whenever I heard a woman had been "stolen" I couldn't help but picture a man carrying her off on his shoulders in the middle of the night while she helplessly tried to get away. Took me a while to understand it was usually consensual.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Curious that the same face-saving mechanism is common in other parts of the world. In many cases, it is just preserving language describing the act given the prior assumption that the woman was property of the male head of household until disposed of by them in marriage, devoid of her own agency, while the man attempting to marry her without that consent was fully possessed of moral agency and thus had stolen her from her appropriate custodian.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  In the case of Kyrgyzstan that doesn't seem to be a "prior" assumption.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    I meant that as why it would be common where the current use is primarily “face saving”, but even in those cases it is still bowing to the continued social relevance of the same attitude, because it only saves face if you assume that abduction is less of an affront to norms than a woman exercising agency with regard to marriage, so “prior” is something of an exaggeration in any case.
    - emodendroket 4y ago
      OK, point taken.
ahazred8ta 4y ago
https://youtu.be/tT03T7SlLb8?t=3235 https://youtu.be/tT03T7SlLb8?t=3235 There was a scene in The Emerald Forest (1985): Boy taps girl lightly with ceremonial club. "No, do it right!" (WHOMP)

ahazred8ta 4y ago

The Kyrgyz term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ala_kachuu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ala_kachuu covers elopement, certain kinds of arranged marriage, and actual kidnapping. YMMV

prettyStandard 4y ago

Ok this is a long article, and I don't have time to read the whole thing. But it is reminding me of several very dark things she said. One was how women do not refuse sex, and yes women get beat if they burn the food. Yikes. So yes there are some serious problems there, but do take it with a grain of salt. Some people are lucky.

emodendroket 4y ago
She interviews several people who say this -- "well, it was basically OK for me, so I think this practice is fine." But I find it hard to trust such perspectives as truly considered if the alternative is living for decades with the conviction that your husband did something truly monstrous to you and now you're just waking up next to him every morning like it never happened.

D13Fd 4y ago

Interesting that kidnapping is considered face-saving as compared to a private marriage.

emodendroket 4y ago

> Gonna go read the article now and see if I need to make any updates. Yeah I'd say the murder the story centers on and several other stories recounted don't fit what you said too well. The article also calls into question how voluntary these "voluntary" kidnappings truly are in their social context.

prettyStandard 4y ago
Take a look at my second comment. I think with my first comment you got what was literally said to me. My second comment is me recalling and re-reading between the lines.