5 ms·

Its the Mickey Mouse problem. Disney doesn't want Mickey or related works to enter public domain, because it would be a huge knock to their current empire. St

by ep103 4y ago

Its the Mickey Mouse problem. Disney doesn't want Mickey or related works to enter public domain, because it would be a huge knock to their current empire. Still, this seems rather easily solvable to naïve little old me. 20 year copyright by default, with a 20 year review cycle process an individual/company can apply to to ask for extension, on the condition that they can prove harm to newly generated IP, if the copyright is not-renewed. Still using Mickey Mouse to generate new works of non-derivative IP, and copyright of Mickey Mouse isn't causing damage to any other competing agencies (the way holding IP to a new drug or invention would)? Fine, renew granted.

clcaev 4y ago
Or, beyond 28 years, if the work is not released to the public domain, have an annual copyright tax based upon a "fair market" assessment of the property. To keep assessment real, perhaps let there be an auction starting at 2x the taxed value.
- hakfoo 4y ago
  Wasn't there a variation of that done for some property taxes: you could assess your own property, but they reserved the right to buy it at the assessed price, discouraging lowballing? Right now, especially without registration required anymore, there is no burden to owning copyrights "passively". If they had to enumerate and price them, that alone may make it worth shedding some of them.
  - gwd 4y ago
    > Wasn't there a variation of that done for some property taxes: you could assess your own property, but they reserved the right to buy it at the assessed price, discouraging lowballing? I've come to the conclusion that this sort of property tax (on everything, including land, equipment, trademarks, and copyrighted material) is the only kind of tax that actually makes sense economically. Fundamentally, "property" is one person or entity taking something from society as a whole (backed in the end by society-sanctioned violence); "taxation" is its natural inverse: society as a whole taking something back from a person or individual (backed in the end by society-sanctioned violence). There's a pleasant symmetry that the people who have benefit the most from the setup of society should be the ones who fund it; and that in a sense, ownership must be continually "justified".
elliekelly 4y ago
Why should Disney get an infinite copyright? I think copyright should be limited to natural persons. No one involved in the creation of Mickey Mouse is still alive. Imagine if the Brothers Grimm, Inc. had just kept infinitely renewing their copyright claim? Disney wouldn’t even exist. Disney is a company that was built upon works in the public domain and now is depriving the rest of the world from the very thing that allowed Disney to flourish in the first place.
- satvikpendem 4y ago
  Then what happens as humans solve aging and no one dies? There should be an age limit regardless of natural or corporate persons.
  - dudul 4y ago
    I feel like we can revisit when we reach this point :)
  - geerlingguy 4y ago
    > solve aging and no one dies I believe this may be an HN bubble thing. Fusion energy will be commercialized hundreds if not thousands of years before that will be reality.
    - satvikpendem 4y ago
      I was being slightly facetious ;). However it is something I've thought about before, what happens to societies when no one dies, whether we'll keep the same customs and societal opinions forever, etc.
      - elliekelly 4y ago
        You might enjoy Kurt Vonnegut’s short story 2BR02B. The Wikipedia article[1] has links to several different places you can read or listen to it for free. (Though I’m a bit confused as to how his work is already in the public domain since he only died relatively recently?) [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_B_R_0_2_B https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_B_R_0_2_B
unity1001 4y ago
No extensions. The moment you allow extensions you get corps. like Disney. 10 years is more than enough in the current landscape of the Internet and the creator-driven economy/
mannerheim 4y ago
Disney gets blamed a lot for this, but I don't really buy it. The copyright extension in '76 brought America into the same copyright duration as stipulated by the Berne Convention of 1886 (although the US would not sign on until a decade later), and the Sonny Bono act extended copyright length to the same as what had been harmonised in the EU a few years prior; Germany had had notoriously long copyright lengths, lasting 80 years past the death of the author at one point. Don't get me wrong, copyright length is certainly too long, but blaming Disney is rather Americentric, considering the US was rather late to the game on long copyright durations.
- nearbuy 4y ago
  Another point against the Mickey Mouse theory is that the trend ends on January 1st, 2024. Mickey Mouse will enter the public domain.
  - oblio 4y ago
    That's assuming there's no other extension :-)
- haspok 4y ago
  There is no "95 years after publication" rule in the EU, so you cannot say the Sonny Bono act was a "harmonization". Wikipedia also states (with some sources), that "Since 1990, The Walt Disney Company had lobbied for copyright extension." It was in their best interest, they had the money, so no surprises there. I'm sure they weren't the only ones, but the largest, for sure.
  - mannerheim 4y ago
    True, although in this case the US law is perhaps better than the EU one; the EU lacks any exceptions for works of joint authorship, including works for hire, so it's 70 years from the death of the last surviving author, which would usually exceed 95 years.
p1necone 4y ago
Mickey Mouse is a registered trademark, copyright law isn't even relevant.
shibopo 4y ago
I'm actually surprised corporations aren't lobbying for this. Instead of coming up with original ideas, they can just take any works of art pre-2000 and just recycle them over and over. Why spend billions buying Marvel when you can do it for free, why spend billions for parts of the LOTR series, why spend billions to buy Lucas Arts. I mean Disney is built on taking public domain works and reworking them into their own classics. Imagine if they could do that with the biggest cultural uptake in human history of the 1900s instead of the relatively unknown 1800s stories. Don't forget streaming services like Netflix who shell out billions to get Seinfeld and Friends. Lobbying for 20 years means they get ALL the 90s instead of shelling out billions.

by ep103 4y ago

clcaev 4y ago

Or, beyond 28 years, if the work is not released to the public domain, have an annual copyright tax based upon a "fair market" assessment of the property. To keep assessment real, perhaps let there be an auction starting at 2x the taxed value.

hakfoo 4y ago
Wasn't there a variation of that done for some property taxes: you could assess your own property, but they reserved the right to buy it at the assessed price, discouraging lowballing? Right now, especially without registration required anymore, there is no burden to owning copyrights "passively". If they had to enumerate and price them, that alone may make it worth shedding some of them.
- gwd 4y ago
  > Wasn't there a variation of that done for some property taxes: you could assess your own property, but they reserved the right to buy it at the assessed price, discouraging lowballing? I've come to the conclusion that this sort of property tax (on everything, including land, equipment, trademarks, and copyrighted material) is the only kind of tax that actually makes sense economically. Fundamentally, "property" is one person or entity taking something from society as a whole (backed in the end by society-sanctioned violence); "taxation" is its natural inverse: society as a whole taking something back from a person or individual (backed in the end by society-sanctioned violence). There's a pleasant symmetry that the people who have benefit the most from the setup of society should be the ones who fund it; and that in a sense, ownership must be continually "justified".

elliekelly 4y ago

Why should Disney get an infinite copyright? I think copyright should be limited to natural persons. No one involved in the creation of Mickey Mouse is still alive. Imagine if the Brothers Grimm, Inc. had just kept infinitely renewing their copyright claim? Disney wouldn’t even exist. Disney is a company that was built upon works in the public domain and now is depriving the rest of the world from the very thing that allowed Disney to flourish in the first place.

satvikpendem 4y ago
Then what happens as humans solve aging and no one dies? There should be an age limit regardless of natural or corporate persons.
- dudul 4y ago
  I feel like we can revisit when we reach this point :)
- geerlingguy 4y ago
  > solve aging and no one dies I believe this may be an HN bubble thing. Fusion energy will be commercialized hundreds if not thousands of years before that will be reality.
  - satvikpendem 4y ago
    I was being slightly facetious ;). However it is something I've thought about before, what happens to societies when no one dies, whether we'll keep the same customs and societal opinions forever, etc.
    - elliekelly 4y ago
      You might enjoy Kurt Vonnegut’s short story 2BR02B. The Wikipedia article[1] has links to several different places you can read or listen to it for free. (Though I’m a bit confused as to how his work is already in the public domain since he only died relatively recently?) [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_B_R_0_2_B https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_B_R_0_2_B

unity1001 4y ago

No extensions. The moment you allow extensions you get corps. like Disney. 10 years is more than enough in the current landscape of the Internet and the creator-driven economy/

mannerheim 4y ago

Disney gets blamed a lot for this, but I don't really buy it. The copyright extension in '76 brought America into the same copyright duration as stipulated by the Berne Convention of 1886 (although the US would not sign on until a decade later), and the Sonny Bono act extended copyright length to the same as what had been harmonised in the EU a few years prior; Germany had had notoriously long copyright lengths, lasting 80 years past the death of the author at one point. Don't get me wrong, copyright length is certainly too long, but blaming Disney is rather Americentric, considering the US was rather late to the game on long copyright durations.

nearbuy 4y ago
Another point against the Mickey Mouse theory is that the trend ends on January 1st, 2024. Mickey Mouse will enter the public domain.
- oblio 4y ago
  That's assuming there's no other extension :-)
haspok 4y ago
There is no "95 years after publication" rule in the EU, so you cannot say the Sonny Bono act was a "harmonization". Wikipedia also states (with some sources), that "Since 1990, The Walt Disney Company had lobbied for copyright extension." It was in their best interest, they had the money, so no surprises there. I'm sure they weren't the only ones, but the largest, for sure.
- mannerheim 4y ago
  True, although in this case the US law is perhaps better than the EU one; the EU lacks any exceptions for works of joint authorship, including works for hire, so it's 70 years from the death of the last surviving author, which would usually exceed 95 years.

p1necone 4y ago

Mickey Mouse is a registered trademark, copyright law isn't even relevant.

shibopo 4y ago

I'm actually surprised corporations aren't lobbying for this. Instead of coming up with original ideas, they can just take any works of art pre-2000 and just recycle them over and over. Why spend billions buying Marvel when you can do it for free, why spend billions for parts of the LOTR series, why spend billions to buy Lucas Arts. I mean Disney is built on taking public domain works and reworking them into their own classics. Imagine if they could do that with the biggest cultural uptake in human history of the 1900s instead of the relatively unknown 1800s stories. Don't forget streaming services like Netflix who shell out billions to get Seinfeld and Friends. Lobbying for 20 years means they get ALL the 90s instead of shelling out billions.