18 ms·

An extensive letter from Edsger Dijkstra to my 19 year old self (1989)

310 points by raphlinus 4y ago

082349872349872 4y ago
Noting the crossouts and Tipp-Ex used here (for a "quick" note to an aspiring teenager), I wonder what EWD did to get the very clean handwritten copy in the EWD series? Did he re-pen a final draft?
- raphlinus 4y ago
  I don't know for sure, but I suspect so. He was meticulous in so many ways, including his thought, his language, and of course his handwriting, so it seems entirely in character that he would redo a draft to make it look flawless.
  - 082349872349872 4y ago
    My favourite EWD anecdote was a mention of his upbringing, which explains how he was far more articulate in my mother tongue than I am: he was taught never to start uttering a sentence before he knew how it would end.
    - raphlinus 4y ago
      That certainly sounds like him! Actually I have an even more amazing artifact. He wrote out the entire book "Predicate Calculus and Program Semantics" as a manuscript, beautifully formatted two pages to a letter-sized sheet, page numbers and all. It is nearly perfect but does have a few crossed out bits. I can't find that anywhere online, and just sent an email to the EWD archive. I'd be very surprised if I have the only extant copy, but if so I will certainly get it properly preserved.
cafard 4y ago
I believe that Dijkstra is too often remembered chiefly for his dismissive, not to say snarky aphorisms. This gives a very different picture of him.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  This letter suggests that Dijkstra's tone was a function of intended audience: the aphorisms which inspired the nano-Dijkstra (as measure of arrogance) were intended for peers, Who Should Have Known Better; the supportive encouragement was intended for a junior, Who May Yet Someday Do Something Interesting.
  - rramadass 4y ago
    Well said! Too often i see people being dismissive of Dijkstra because of his aphorisms, they don't understand the context that drove it. In my mind he was a "True Perfectionist" who demanded Perfection of himself and everybody else. It was a rare uncompromising and mathematically focused mind well suited to the then nascent "Computing Science" field.
  - kragen 4y ago
    while there is something to this, it is also important context that io was already something very interesting indeed; though raph was 19 he was already advancing human knowledge in a way that many of dijkstra's supposed peers were failing to do it is a shame that io is not more well known, because it is a brilliant achievement; by virtue of a simple syntactic trick it turns explicit cps code from its usual impenetrable form into something quite readable
    - akkartik 4y ago
      Is there a link to learn more about this project? It seems different from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(programming_language)
      - 082349872349872 4y ago
        Io: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/70931.70934 https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/70931.70934 Viewing continuations as the "mother of all monads", this work (1989) could have anticipated Moggi (1991) if there had been continued development in that direction! (it would've taken much more work though, as IIRC EWD noted Io as presented wasn't properly associative in ';') Moggi91: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~crary/819-f09/Moggi91.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~crary/819-f09/Moggi91.pdf
soheil 4y ago
Here is the letter https://levien.com/dijkstra-letter.pdf https://levien.com/dijkstra-letter.pdf
ryloric 4y ago
Whenever I come across some new AI hype thing in the wild with the usual buzzwords, a sentence Dijkstra wrote way back sort of flashes through my head. It always reminds me to be careful and precise with words. "...the question of whether Machines Can Think, a question of which we now know that it is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim." In the same "post" he also talks a lot about hype and how it hurts the field. The last few years of computing have been exceptionally hype driven, even more than usual. We could've been better with a few more critics like him in that period. [0] https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd08xx/EWD898.PDF https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd08xx/EWD898.PDF
- idealmedtech 4y ago
  There are certainly critics, but their opinions, if consistently opposed to the hype cycle, get either sidelined or lambasted. Just sort any post on some new ML application by controversial comments and you'll find the critics aplenty.
  - tomxor 4y ago
    > get either sidelined or lambasted "No people"'s comments only seem to be worth enough in attention currency once things explode and it turns into an "I told you so". At least within the world of facehype.com and hypper.com et al. Behind closed doors people are probably more critical.
- qsort 4y ago
  It's also a sentence constantly on my mind. It's interesting to note it's a very different type of criticism than the ones that usually balloon when something new or supposedly new becomes public. It's the kind of criticism that leaves room for genuine acceptance of the technical excellence and usefulness of those tools, while not buying the hype in the slightest. EWDs are a gold mine. He's an exceptional thinker and his prose is beautiful.
  - baxtr 4y ago
    Can you recommend any book by him? Or essays?
mberning 4y ago
I know for myself it is very refreshing when a young person comes to you with question or problem that they have clearly spent a lot of time on. It certainly motivates me to provide detailed and extensive feedback. In the industry you unfortunately end up answering the same “dumb” questions ad nauseam. When something different comes along it is a joy.
- raphlinus 4y ago
  Indeed. I think we've lost a little something from that era, though, where it took some effort to reach out, sending a letter on paper. These days, it's super easy to contact someone on social media or whatever, which is very convenient and efficient. Dijkstra to me really personified a slower, deeper way of interacting.
nl 4y ago
It's worth noting that Raph Levin (who this letter was a reply to) tackled many of the same problems that plague social media these days with the wonderful but now sadly mostly forgotten Advogato: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advogato https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advogato
- raphlinus 4y ago
  And to add more continuity to the circle, here is a short memorial I posted to Advogato on Dijkstra's death, just over 20 years ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20170629060656/http://www.advogato.org/person/raph/diary/252.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170629060656/http://www.advoga...
  - 082349872349872 4y ago
    Wow; that looks familiar! I think your memorial is what got me started reading EWDs, all those decades ago. They eventually convinced me that my systems bias had been a giant shoulder-chip, and that theory folk also had something worth exploring. Thanks for having written it.
- sureglymop 4y ago
  This looks incredibly cool! Crazy to think there were many good things on the internet that i just missed because they came before my time and I'll now never get to experience them.
  - emmelaich 4y ago
    Advogato was great. That and some of the planets (e.g. planet.gnome.org) had so much good content.
  - nl 4y ago
    Don't worry - the internet is much, much better than it was now in every way.
mcqueenjordan 4y ago
I searched google maps for the address on the letter, and interestingly... on street view, the house corresponding to the address on Dikjstra's letterhead is blurred out. Interesting. https://www.google.com/maps/place/6602+Robbie+Creek+Cove,+Austin,+TX+78750/@30.3780067,-97.7900752,3a,75y,36.44h,83.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si1sJZnsmH4h8AZ8O3QXX0w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x865b34adc4f72963:0x76ab8e003374bd09!8m2!3d30.3781425!4d-97.7897371 https://www.google.com/maps/place/6602+Robbie+Creek+Cove,+Au...
- ammar2 4y ago
  You may already know this but you can request your house/face to be blurred on Street View: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/7011973 https://support.google.com/maps/answer/7011973 Presumably this was requested by whoever currently owns the place.
  - mcqueenjordan 4y ago
    I didn't know this. TIL! Thx.
gradschoolfail 4y ago
Wonder if Dijkstra immediately recognized from Raph’s name that he was corresponding with a fellow Dutchborn in America…?
jgrahamc 4y ago
I love this letter. I received a letter from someone (not quite so illustrious) when I was a teen nerd and it was super important to me. https://blog.jgc.org/2013/05/from-ground-up.html https://blog.jgc.org/2013/05/from-ground-up.html
- ryloric 4y ago
  What a nice guy, he didn't just put it aside thinking it's been too long so why bother. These things seem so small and would probably take less than an hour for an adult but would mean the world to a kid.
benreesman 4y ago
What a legend. Intellect, humility, ingenuity, class, and not the slightest trace of self-interest. I hope we go back to that someday.
bmacho 4y ago
People really should stop using Mastodon to try to share textual content. It just forces people to enable javascript, and spy on them. (There should be a way to force people and companies to share text without javascript, if not legally, then socially.) You can use e.g. twitter/nitter instead.
- levesque 4y ago
  Agreed on the overuse of javascript, although in this case I'm reasonably confident mastodon is not using said javascript to spy on you. Nevertheless it's something mastodon should try to fix. This is very much static content, no valid reason why it wouldn't display without javascript.
  - bmacho 4y ago
    If they can use it, then it's not a question of if, but a question of when. (something something law of big numbers, 1-(1-p)^t tends to 1, as t tends to infinity) Anyway, it is a big step in the wrong direction, and people that care about web or privacy really shouldn't post on mastodon in its current form.
    - kramerger 4y ago
      Wait, didn't you suggest using twitter instead right above this? You realise twitter runs loads of JS, including all kinds of tracking. However unlike mastodon, twitter scripts are not open and reviewed.
      - bmacho 4y ago
        I realise indeed, that's why I wrote twitter/nitter. I don't care about the openness of the scripts, since they don't run. Also someone compromise mastodon, and you can eat your open and reviewed scripts. Let me repeat my point again: don't publish text on media that javascript walls it. It is so wrong on so many levels. In regards of privacy, safety, environment, speed, accessibility, etc etc etc, javascript wall is total bonkers, and should be considered as unacceptable.
elektrontamer 4y ago
> So clearly that a simple mind like mine can understand it. A legend like Edgar Dijkstra referring to his mind as simple is insane to me. Such humility.
- walnutclosefarm 4y ago
  If there is one thing Dijkstra was not, it is humble. That he used false humility as a textual device is obvious. Almost everything else about the way he communicated trumpets extraordinary self-confidence, and a very high opinion of his own relevance.
  - raphlinus 4y ago
    How dare you say that!. Humility was an integral part of his brand. So much so that he titled his Turing Award lecture "The Humble Programmer"[0]. [0]: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/E...
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      There's a reason why arrogance is measured in milli-dijkstras. It's not because he was humble.
  - elektrontamer 4y ago
    I've read of instances of him being blunt and didn't mind it. I'm sure if I was as successful as him I'd be a bit of a prick too. The fact that he can show such humility from time to time is admirable to me. He might also just be holding himself and everyone else to an extremely high standard. I've met people like that who were just as harsh to themselves as they were to others. I like to give people the benefit of doubt.
    - walnutclosefarm 4y ago
      I take no issue with Dijkstra's use of humble-sounding phrases and thoughts. It can be quite effective in making oneself approachable and believable (both of which a different than being humble). I just don't think it means he was actually a humble person.
ThinkBeat 4y ago
Did the author have any connection with Dijkstra prior to this? University, school? This letter would be even more amazing if he did not. A legend like Dijkstra spending several hours to work out what the author was saying in the letter and to offer advice. I would expect a terse 3 line reply if any replay at all. Instead he is kind enough to put real effort into it.
- raphlinus 4y ago
  Yes, we were corresponding for a while, this wasn't just a response to a cold contact. My dad, who was quite a promoter and very invested in the idea of me being a gifted kid, reached out to a bunch of computer scientists, and several responded. I have some of those letters but haven't done any careful organizing of them. As I mentioned in the memorial note, Dijkstra would go on to invite me to the Marktoberdorf summer school the following summer, where I got to spend time with him, Tony Hoare, Greg Nelson, Robert Constable (of Nuprl fame), and others.
  - touisteur 4y ago
    Seems your father did something fantastic for you there (whatever his intrinsic motivations), you've been gifted with amazing experiences or at least great opportunities. I wish I'll be able to help my kids get these kinds of chances in whatever field or endeavour they chose. Writing letters and getting people's attention, centering them on the impact a very little of their time can be a huge boost, help, to a young person, seems like a parent's job.

310 points by raphlinus 4y ago

Noting the crossouts and Tipp-Ex used here (for a "quick" note to an aspiring teenager), I wonder what EWD did to get the very clean handwritten copy in the EWD series? Did he re-pen a final draft?

raphlinus 4y ago
I don't know for sure, but I suspect so. He was meticulous in so many ways, including his thought, his language, and of course his handwriting, so it seems entirely in character that he would redo a draft to make it look flawless.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  My favourite EWD anecdote was a mention of his upbringing, which explains how he was far more articulate in my mother tongue than I am: he was taught never to start uttering a sentence before he knew how it would end.
  - raphlinus 4y ago
    That certainly sounds like him! Actually I have an even more amazing artifact. He wrote out the entire book "Predicate Calculus and Program Semantics" as a manuscript, beautifully formatted two pages to a letter-sized sheet, page numbers and all. It is nearly perfect but does have a few crossed out bits. I can't find that anywhere online, and just sent an email to the EWD archive. I'd be very surprised if I have the only extant copy, but if so I will certainly get it properly preserved.

cafard 4y ago

I believe that Dijkstra is too often remembered chiefly for his dismissive, not to say snarky aphorisms. This gives a very different picture of him.

082349872349872 4y ago
This letter suggests that Dijkstra's tone was a function of intended audience: the aphorisms which inspired the nano-Dijkstra (as measure of arrogance) were intended for peers, Who Should Have Known Better; the supportive encouragement was intended for a junior, Who May Yet Someday Do Something Interesting.
- rramadass 4y ago
  Well said! Too often i see people being dismissive of Dijkstra because of his aphorisms, they don't understand the context that drove it. In my mind he was a "True Perfectionist" who demanded Perfection of himself and everybody else. It was a rare uncompromising and mathematically focused mind well suited to the then nascent "Computing Science" field.
- kragen 4y ago
  while there is something to this, it is also important context that io was already something very interesting indeed; though raph was 19 he was already advancing human knowledge in a way that many of dijkstra's supposed peers were failing to do it is a shame that io is not more well known, because it is a brilliant achievement; by virtue of a simple syntactic trick it turns explicit cps code from its usual impenetrable form into something quite readable
  - akkartik 4y ago
    Is there a link to learn more about this project? It seems different from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(programming_language)
    - 082349872349872 4y ago
      Io: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/70931.70934 https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/70931.70934 Viewing continuations as the "mother of all monads", this work (1989) could have anticipated Moggi (1991) if there had been continued development in that direction! (it would've taken much more work though, as IIRC EWD noted Io as presented wasn't properly associative in ';') Moggi91: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~crary/819-f09/Moggi91.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~crary/819-f09/Moggi91.pdf

soheil 4y ago

Here is the letter https://levien.com/dijkstra-letter.pdf https://levien.com/dijkstra-letter.pdf

ryloric 4y ago

Whenever I come across some new AI hype thing in the wild with the usual buzzwords, a sentence Dijkstra wrote way back sort of flashes through my head. It always reminds me to be careful and precise with words. "...the question of whether Machines Can Think, a question of which we now know that it is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim." In the same "post" he also talks a lot about hype and how it hurts the field. The last few years of computing have been exceptionally hype driven, even more than usual. We could've been better with a few more critics like him in that period. [0] https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd08xx/EWD898.PDF https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd08xx/EWD898.PDF

idealmedtech 4y ago
There are certainly critics, but their opinions, if consistently opposed to the hype cycle, get either sidelined or lambasted. Just sort any post on some new ML application by controversial comments and you'll find the critics aplenty.
- tomxor 4y ago
  > get either sidelined or lambasted "No people"'s comments only seem to be worth enough in attention currency once things explode and it turns into an "I told you so". At least within the world of facehype.com and hypper.com et al. Behind closed doors people are probably more critical.
qsort 4y ago
It's also a sentence constantly on my mind. It's interesting to note it's a very different type of criticism than the ones that usually balloon when something new or supposedly new becomes public. It's the kind of criticism that leaves room for genuine acceptance of the technical excellence and usefulness of those tools, while not buying the hype in the slightest. EWDs are a gold mine. He's an exceptional thinker and his prose is beautiful.
- baxtr 4y ago
  Can you recommend any book by him? Or essays?

mberning 4y ago

I know for myself it is very refreshing when a young person comes to you with question or problem that they have clearly spent a lot of time on. It certainly motivates me to provide detailed and extensive feedback. In the industry you unfortunately end up answering the same “dumb” questions ad nauseam. When something different comes along it is a joy.

raphlinus 4y ago
Indeed. I think we've lost a little something from that era, though, where it took some effort to reach out, sending a letter on paper. These days, it's super easy to contact someone on social media or whatever, which is very convenient and efficient. Dijkstra to me really personified a slower, deeper way of interacting.

nl 4y ago

It's worth noting that Raph Levin (who this letter was a reply to) tackled many of the same problems that plague social media these days with the wonderful but now sadly mostly forgotten Advogato: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advogato https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advogato

raphlinus 4y ago
And to add more continuity to the circle, here is a short memorial I posted to Advogato on Dijkstra's death, just over 20 years ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20170629060656/http://www.advogato.org/person/raph/diary/252.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170629060656/http://www.advoga...
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  Wow; that looks familiar! I think your memorial is what got me started reading EWDs, all those decades ago. They eventually convinced me that my systems bias had been a giant shoulder-chip, and that theory folk also had something worth exploring. Thanks for having written it.
sureglymop 4y ago
This looks incredibly cool! Crazy to think there were many good things on the internet that i just missed because they came before my time and I'll now never get to experience them.
- emmelaich 4y ago
  Advogato was great. That and some of the planets (e.g. planet.gnome.org) had so much good content.
- nl 4y ago
  Don't worry - the internet is much, much better than it was now in every way.

mcqueenjordan 4y ago

I searched google maps for the address on the letter, and interestingly... on street view, the house corresponding to the address on Dikjstra's letterhead is blurred out. Interesting. https://www.google.com/maps/place/6602+Robbie+Creek+Cove,+Austin,+TX+78750/@30.3780067,-97.7900752,3a,75y,36.44h,83.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si1sJZnsmH4h8AZ8O3QXX0w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x865b34adc4f72963:0x76ab8e003374bd09!8m2!3d30.3781425!4d-97.7897371 https://www.google.com/maps/place/6602+Robbie+Creek+Cove,+Au...

ammar2 4y ago
You may already know this but you can request your house/face to be blurred on Street View: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/7011973 https://support.google.com/maps/answer/7011973 Presumably this was requested by whoever currently owns the place.
- mcqueenjordan 4y ago
  I didn't know this. TIL! Thx.

gradschoolfail 4y ago

Wonder if Dijkstra immediately recognized from Raph’s name that he was corresponding with a fellow Dutchborn in America…?

jgrahamc 4y ago

I love this letter. I received a letter from someone (not quite so illustrious) when I was a teen nerd and it was super important to me. https://blog.jgc.org/2013/05/from-ground-up.html https://blog.jgc.org/2013/05/from-ground-up.html

ryloric 4y ago
What a nice guy, he didn't just put it aside thinking it's been too long so why bother. These things seem so small and would probably take less than an hour for an adult but would mean the world to a kid.

benreesman 4y ago

What a legend. Intellect, humility, ingenuity, class, and not the slightest trace of self-interest. I hope we go back to that someday.

bmacho 4y ago

People really should stop using Mastodon to try to share textual content. It just forces people to enable javascript, and spy on them. (There should be a way to force people and companies to share text without javascript, if not legally, then socially.) You can use e.g. twitter/nitter instead.

levesque 4y ago
Agreed on the overuse of javascript, although in this case I'm reasonably confident mastodon is not using said javascript to spy on you. Nevertheless it's something mastodon should try to fix. This is very much static content, no valid reason why it wouldn't display without javascript.
- bmacho 4y ago
  If they can use it, then it's not a question of if, but a question of when. (something something law of big numbers, 1-(1-p)^t tends to 1, as t tends to infinity) Anyway, it is a big step in the wrong direction, and people that care about web or privacy really shouldn't post on mastodon in its current form.
  - kramerger 4y ago
    Wait, didn't you suggest using twitter instead right above this? You realise twitter runs loads of JS, including all kinds of tracking. However unlike mastodon, twitter scripts are not open and reviewed.
    - bmacho 4y ago
      I realise indeed, that's why I wrote twitter/nitter. I don't care about the openness of the scripts, since they don't run. Also someone compromise mastodon, and you can eat your open and reviewed scripts. Let me repeat my point again: don't publish text on media that javascript walls it. It is so wrong on so many levels. In regards of privacy, safety, environment, speed, accessibility, etc etc etc, javascript wall is total bonkers, and should be considered as unacceptable.

elektrontamer 4y ago

> So clearly that a simple mind like mine can understand it. A legend like Edgar Dijkstra referring to his mind as simple is insane to me. Such humility.

walnutclosefarm 4y ago
If there is one thing Dijkstra was not, it is humble. That he used false humility as a textual device is obvious. Almost everything else about the way he communicated trumpets extraordinary self-confidence, and a very high opinion of his own relevance.
- raphlinus 4y ago
  How dare you say that!. Humility was an integral part of his brand. So much so that he titled his Turing Award lecture "The Humble Programmer"[0]. [0]: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/E...
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    There's a reason why arrogance is measured in milli-dijkstras. It's not because he was humble.
- elektrontamer 4y ago
  I've read of instances of him being blunt and didn't mind it. I'm sure if I was as successful as him I'd be a bit of a prick too. The fact that he can show such humility from time to time is admirable to me. He might also just be holding himself and everyone else to an extremely high standard. I've met people like that who were just as harsh to themselves as they were to others. I like to give people the benefit of doubt.
  - walnutclosefarm 4y ago
    I take no issue with Dijkstra's use of humble-sounding phrases and thoughts. It can be quite effective in making oneself approachable and believable (both of which a different than being humble). I just don't think it means he was actually a humble person.

ThinkBeat 4y ago

Did the author have any connection with Dijkstra prior to this? University, school? This letter would be even more amazing if he did not. A legend like Dijkstra spending several hours to work out what the author was saying in the letter and to offer advice. I would expect a terse 3 line reply if any replay at all. Instead he is kind enough to put real effort into it.

raphlinus 4y ago
Yes, we were corresponding for a while, this wasn't just a response to a cold contact. My dad, who was quite a promoter and very invested in the idea of me being a gifted kid, reached out to a bunch of computer scientists, and several responded. I have some of those letters but haven't done any careful organizing of them. As I mentioned in the memorial note, Dijkstra would go on to invite me to the Marktoberdorf summer school the following summer, where I got to spend time with him, Tony Hoare, Greg Nelson, Robert Constable (of Nuprl fame), and others.
- touisteur 4y ago
  Seems your father did something fantastic for you there (whatever his intrinsic motivations), you've been gifted with amazing experiences or at least great opportunities. I wish I'll be able to help my kids get these kinds of chances in whatever field or endeavour they chose. Writing letters and getting people's attention, centering them on the impact a very little of their time can be a huge boost, help, to a young person, seems like a parent's job.