11 ms·

Bach’s Accidental Masterpiece

114 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

landonxjames 4y ago
https://archive.ph/Vyy7X https://archive.ph/Vyy7X
kazinator 4y ago
> according to the musical disposition of that day, he was generations behind it”. He used forms – particularly the fugue – that were unfashionable in the early 18th century. All the music from the Bach era (1680s to 1750s) that is emphasized today has a great deal in common with J. S. Bach. Bach is just a cut better at it. Bach didn't just write fugues, and he gave them fun preludes when he did. From a historic perspective, Bach's music cannot be called anachronistic w.r.t. his period, when taken together with other music from the period which survives. Hey, look, these three guys were 1685 babies: J.S. Bach: 1685 - 1750 Scarlatti: 1685 - 1757 Handel: 1685 - 1759 A little senior: Vivaldi: 1679 - 1741 Telemann: 1681 - 1767 Lol, everyone I can think of off the top of my head is clustered around 1680. If one of them made old, unfashionable music, they all must have.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  That music will be played and played long after our societies are dust and forgotten.
  - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
    Not necessarily? It's survived some 350 years, which is pretty long as far as music is concerned, but that's because our society places importance on this music. If our societies turn to dust, our inheritors might not necessarily be so infatuated with it. They also could be, much like Greek philosophers have been a fascination in the Western world for thousands of years, but there's no rule saying that people will enjoy classical music forever. Plenty of great things die out or just grow out of fashion. If you're talking about the music being preserved and able to be played in the future, then sure, but the same thing could be said of Shakira.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      > that's because our society places importance on this music It had already almost been lost. > If our societies turn to dust, our inheritors might not necessarily be so infatuated with it. Maybe. Every generation new people seem to discover Bach and fall in love. > the same thing could be said of Shakira Yes, but Shakira's music does not strike me as timeless. Of course only time will tell...
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Rameau, who had a pretty different style from Bach (taking after Couperin and the French style) was 1683.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >If one of them made old, unfashionable music, they all must have By what logic? Did all use the same forms, in he same manner?
- prvc 4y ago
  >If one of them made old, unfashionable music, they all must have. Yes, he took the Gould quote out of context, which was in reference to the latter part of Bach's career. Interestingly, JSB parodied Style Galante music in Book II of the WTK here and there, for example in the B major Prelude.
- isaacfrond 4y ago
  Vivaldi is born in 1678
acheron 4y ago
I’ll put in a plug for the Netherlands Bach society’s “All of Bach” project. https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/allofbach https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/allofbach Also if you have a local group that performs Bach works, they’re great to hear live. The Washington Bach Consort in DC puts on some good performances regularly.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  And: https://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/ https://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/
- cloudedcordial 4y ago
  Let me put a plug on this thread for Bach Stiftung's recording and its YouTube channel for many of the choral works. https://www.bachstiftung.ch/ https://www.bachstiftung.ch/
- Bud 4y ago
  I sing Bach professionally, for the last 25 years or so. So I just wanted to echo this recommendation. The All of Bach project is a great way to experience the best of today's Bach performance practice online, for free. It's a great gift to world culture.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    It's great what you can do when there is no copyright. Imagine all of the worlds music to be open to re-performance like that without a bunch of rent seeking.
telesilla 4y ago
Bach's life is so hidden from us in terms of letters from him, but we know enough to write some pretty good biographies. My personal favorite is Music in the Castle of Heaven, by John Eliot Gardiner the conductor. Who knows Bach better than those who know his music so intimately? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17883941-bach https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17883941-bach I also recommend learning a few notes on the keyboard and playing something of his, perhaps the first prelude of the collection they mention in the article. It's magnificent, how he plays with time and harmony.
- diego_moita 4y ago
  The book is indeed good. For those wanting a sample of Gardiner's knowledge I'd recommend the documentary presented by him "Bach - A Passionate Life" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZVn9NZqyxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZVn9NZqyxs
- eternalban 4y ago
  Thinking of gifting this. Is this for adults or would you think a budding composer aged 10 would benefit from it?
  - telesilla 4y ago
    I'd say it's a bit dry for a young person but you could find them instead a beautiful rendition of his own manuscript. This would be a lifelong treasure if you could find something very well made, or a simple cheaper poster. https://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/item104654.html https://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/item104654.html Eg. https://www.etsy.com/listing/1302262260/johann-sebastian-bach-music-score?ref=share_v4_lx https://www.etsy.com/listing/1302262260/johann-sebastian-bac...
    - eternalban 4y ago
      Thank you!
tgv 4y ago
Fluff, or if you prefer: a highly circumlocutory string of half connected sentences and paragraphs around not knowing the exact origins of the Well-Tempered Clavier. Book 1, that is. It doesn't even mention the second book.
- ask_b123 4y ago
  Might be fluff but I still got to discover the existence of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach. Also, the 2nd book is mentioned in the last sentence.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    The number of Bach family people with their own Wikipedia page is probably some kind of record for a family that old: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Aidevah 4y ago
  Yes. It's very difficult to say anything interesting or revealing about music that cannot otherwise be understood or felt by listening to an intelligent performance. Most people are incapable of describing "the music itself", so most writings on music are biographical, as is the case here. It really makes you appreciate how rare writers like Charles Rosen are.
devindotcom 4y ago
Love the Well-Tempered Clavier! I recommend listening to the harpsichord versions, which emphasize the individual notes and tempo, since (IMO) these were not really meant as expressive, emotional pieces to be interpreted liberally on pianoforte. That doesn't mean they can't be played or enjoyed that way, but I think the harpsichord (which Bach would have composed and played for) is the better way to hear it first. So find a harpsichord version that works for you - there are still many styles to choose from, but the works are short so you can feel out an artist even with a 30-second preview. The very first track, BWV 846, is an excellent litmus test. I've listened to the whole thing in sequence many times and the pieces are paired (as the article notes) for actual reasons, but now I like to put it on random and see if I can remember how pieces go without being primed by their position. Wonderful collection of music.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Harpsichord is not for everybody, listening to it for hours on end can be quite grating. Glenn Gould has a very nice version that seems to me to strike a nice balance between being true to the original and using an instrument that is a bit gentler on the ear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CVlBSgj0bk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CVlBSgj0bk
  - olau 4y ago
    In my opinion, Gould had some things that worked for him, but also some that certainly didn't. Like the link you sent, the fact that he's staccatoing the broken chords in the first prelude... Why? It's horrible. If you want something on the rigid tempo/clear notes end, I would instead recommend this Thomas Schwan recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IImakFsEHL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IImakFsEHL8 But actually if you don't know Bach, I would start with the gentle András Schiff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugc5FZsycAw&t=181s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugc5FZsycAw&t=181s I agree with the parent that listening to harpsichord recordings does give you something different from the piano recordings. I don't agree with the expressive pianoforte part, though. As far as I'm aware Bach never left any instructions to that end. Also as far as I'm aware, at the time musicians were expected to breath life into the pieces on their own, deciding tempo, dynamics (sound volume) etc. according to their abilities and the customs at the time. This idea of a piece being set in stone with only one correct interpretation, or at least only small variations allowed, is, I think, a much later idea. You can see it start in say a composition by Chopin that will have detailed execution instructions, and really set in with pop songs in the past 70 years. As I gather, around the time of Bach there were several different models of both harpsichords and clavichords around in addition to organs, all with relatively different tonal qualities. If you listen to harpsichord recordings, you'll note that they actually do customize the tempo locally (rubato) to infuse life into the pieces: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNQ-sUvSiV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNQ-sUvSiV8 You cannot vary the dynamics quickly on a harpsichord. Clavichords are much more expressive, though. You can even make a vibrato (Bebung): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oCGNwDokT0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oCGNwDokT0 I think Bach wrote these pieces so that people, including his own children, could play them at home, whether on a harpsichord or clavichord or something else, and I also think he intended the players to use their instrument to its fullest potential. Why wouldn't he? I have a hard time believing he wouldn't himself graduate the dynamics on a clavichord. I also think that part of what makes his music ethereal is that it actually does generalize over many instruments, even later instruments like the modern pianoforte, but also something like a guitar. You can find guitar players on Youtube delivering Bach that sounds great. He was a master of harmony.
lalalandland 4y ago
"A camera pans down from high in a church to focus on a stone bust of a typically ill-tempered looking Johann Sebastian Bach. It’s 1962 and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) is making a short film about the composer, presented by the pianist Glenn Gould. He’s playing Bach’s Fugue in E-flat major on the organ, initially off-camera. He completes the short piece, swivels round on his stool, and ad-libs the following: Select and enter your email address" I thought the Firefox Reader text was a AI piece. Haha
AlbertCory 4y ago
The movie TÁR opens with a music class where Prof. Tár plays the Prelude in C for a reluctant student who says he can't relate to Bach because he was a hetero white guy. All he can say is "You play very well." I've played that, of course, since there aren't any conventionally difficult parts in it. There is something about that piece that just gets inside you. That has to be the definition of a really great work of art: you can't say what, exactly, is great about it, but somehow it's just there. I always wonder what Bach would have said about it. "Oh, yeah, that. Just something I tossed off."
- jacquesm 4y ago
  > I've played that, of course, since there aren't any conventionally difficult parts in it. ouch. > "Oh, yeah, that. Just something I tossed off." What I wouldn't give for a couple of hours watching JS Bach at work improvising or composing. Just concentrated listening to all of Bach's works is a massive undertaking, it makes you wonder how he found the time to set it all down in between all of his other duties.
  - AlbertCory 4y ago
    > ouch Really? Sorry. I just meant it's nothing like Liszt or a Chopin Ballade, i.e. unplayable for someone like me.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Plenty of the WTK is perfectly unplayable for someone like me :) In fact, if I'm honest probably all of it, that won't stop me from trying though.
      - AlbertCory 4y ago
        Same here. The C Prelude, though: that one I can do. No chords; no eighths; no dotted notes. At one point in his career, Bill Evans was dissatisfied with his playing, and spend a year or so sight-reading the WTC. But then, he was Bill Evans.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
prvc 4y ago
Many inaccuracies in this article. The Well Tempered Keyboard was certainly a deliberate realization of a particular concept, which makes use of several already-written preludes. Also, egregiously: >a system of tuning that’s become standard (“well-tempered”). Nothing in his description hints at what these short pieces really are – deep investigations into the character of each key This system of tuning is obscure, and seldom-used (only occasionally by historical enthusiasts). Possibly confused with equal temperament here. Much less ability for the keys to have different "characters" with equal temperament as well! >providing for his huge family – 20 children from two marriages 20 births total, yes, but never 20 children alive at the same time, unfortunately. >Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach’s music can be dazzling, elegant and highly innovative, but we are unlikely to mark the 300th anniversary of even his best piece. Hopefully, "we" will be more enlightened than that in the coming few decades.
- TylerE 4y ago
  For that matter, JS Bach himself very obscure as a composer during his lifetime, and for 50 years none of his works were in print... and many still weren't until the late 19th century. Any fame he had during his life or the period after was for his virtuoso organ performance.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    Up until the late 1800s, "Bach" referred to his son, CPE Bach. Liszt, Chopin, and other piano virtuosi of the time really helped revive the music of JS Bach, when a lot of his best works were previously thought of as "too hard" or "not worth it."
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      There is a great - and probably out of print - book called 'Men, Women and Pianos', by Arthur Loesser, 1954. Highly recommended to get better insight into how the piano was invented, worked its way into society and how the various composers rose to the spotlight and/or were forgotten again. It's the best researched book on the subject I've read.
ramesh31 4y ago
Am I alone in finding Gould intolerable? I don't have the musical expertise to criticize him technically in depth, but I can best describe his interpretations as "robotic" sounding. Like listening to a player piano.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Gould played Bach the way it is written, perfect tempo, minimal ornamentation, that may come across as 'robotic' to you but it's actually the style that most people that are into baroque favor. If you don't like Gould for Bach may I suggest Dinu Lipatti? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7PNFDrcqmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7PNFDrcqmY And if you had not heard about him maybe dive a bit deeper and see what else you like, he's an amazing pianist that unfortunately was born before really great quality recordings were made but what's there is well worth listening to. His '(unfortunately)Last Recital' is a masterpiece. Enjoy!
  - easybake 4y ago
    > Gould played Bach the way it is written, perfect tempo, minimal ornamentation, that may come across as 'robotic' to you but it's actually the style that most people that are into baroque favor. Indeed! These compositions were ...composed "for the profit and use of musical youth desirous of learning, and especially for the pastime of those already skilled in this study".[1], which I don't think is directly mentioned in the article except maybe from this quote by Gould: > ...“according to the musical disposition of that day, he was generations behind it”. It takes skill to play these compositions the way they were written. Piano is not my forte but what effort I have put into learning these tunes was well worth it. > If you don't like Gould for Bach may I suggest Dinu Lipatti? When I compare the two different performers, Gould sounds like he's playing to a metronome and Dinu Lipatti is playing to a pendulum. > And if you had not heard about him maybe dive a bit deeper and see what else you like, he's an amazing pianist that unfortunately was born before really great quality recordings were made but what's there is well worth listening to. Enjoy! Thank you for sharing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier
- 4y ago
eternalban 4y ago
> Mozart was born six years after Bach died I love these magical moments in history. Some have it as 'the muses' traversing the globe and inspiring humanity in the arts and sciences. Golden ages pop up at various points in time and place, and then the cluster of amazing talent that are typically the greats of the respective civilization. Those few centuries in Europe were blazing with talent. I think an interesting path through history of Humanity could simply follow the golden ages, wherever they are.
- handedness 4y ago
  The 18th child of Johann Sebastian Bach, Johann Christian Bach—AKA "The English Bach", "The London Bach," or "John Bach"—spent five months tutoring the 8-year-old Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in musical composition and very likey was, after Mozart's father, the second biggest personal musical influence on the child. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach#Legacy The Bach family tree alone is an incredible cluster of ability, training, and dedication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family#Partial_family_tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family#Partial_family_tre...
  - eternalban 4y ago
    "influenced Haydn" as well. Wow. Thanks for the link. That piece by him was pleasant.
motohagiography 4y ago
Such timing. I'm working through one of the Preludes (C minor) from the WTC now, but a rare guitar arrangement. There are things about his work it takes (for me) to about the 1000th time I play them to apprecaite, and I can see why real musicians leave his work to later in life. Grinding through some of his less complicated pieces is achievable for someone unschooled in it (like me), but when you play them, you can hear and feel where you stand as a musican, but moreso, as a being. They really are spiritual exercises in an Aquinian sense, written for an audience of one. That said, I also think the amount of woo musicians bring to talking about the work is inversely proportional to their level of ability and technique, so ymmv. I have more than one crackpot idea about him, but in the mean time, it's just a pleasure to puzzle through the pieces.
YossarianFrPrez 4y ago
For an impressive and beautiful version of the first Well-tempered Clavier prelude, check out Bobby McFerrin singing it while he has the crowd simultaneously sing Gonoud's Ave Maria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14LcvpXmb74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14LcvpXmb74
- ralferoo 4y ago
  Somehow I'd never heard of Bobby McFerrin before. Watching that video (which is amazing), led me to the full performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WodODxpTbpA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WodODxpTbpA
  - vjerancrnjak 4y ago
    Similar performance by Jacob Collier and the audience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KsF309XpJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KsF309XpJo Quite exhilarating. I think at some point it was combined to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3U7TPZxbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3U7TPZxbI
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    He's a very nice man and a very interesting musician as well. You may know his breakout hit 'Don't worry, be happy'.

114 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

https://archive.ph/Vyy7X https://archive.ph/Vyy7X

> according to the musical disposition of that day, he was generations behind it”. He used forms – particularly the fugue – that were unfashionable in the early 18th century. All the music from the Bach era (1680s to 1750s) that is emphasized today has a great deal in common with J. S. Bach. Bach is just a cut better at it. Bach didn't just write fugues, and he gave them fun preludes when he did. From a historic perspective, Bach's music cannot be called anachronistic w.r.t. his period, when taken together with other music from the period which survives. Hey, look, these three guys were 1685 babies: J.S. Bach: 1685 - 1750 Scarlatti: 1685 - 1757 Handel: 1685 - 1759 A little senior: Vivaldi: 1679 - 1741 Telemann: 1681 - 1767 Lol, everyone I can think of off the top of my head is clustered around 1680. If one of them made old, unfashionable music, they all must have.

jacquesm 4y ago
That music will be played and played long after our societies are dust and forgotten.
- dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
  Not necessarily? It's survived some 350 years, which is pretty long as far as music is concerned, but that's because our society places importance on this music. If our societies turn to dust, our inheritors might not necessarily be so infatuated with it. They also could be, much like Greek philosophers have been a fascination in the Western world for thousands of years, but there's no rule saying that people will enjoy classical music forever. Plenty of great things die out or just grow out of fashion. If you're talking about the music being preserved and able to be played in the future, then sure, but the same thing could be said of Shakira.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    > that's because our society places importance on this music It had already almost been lost. > If our societies turn to dust, our inheritors might not necessarily be so infatuated with it. Maybe. Every generation new people seem to discover Bach and fall in love. > the same thing could be said of Shakira Yes, but Shakira's music does not strike me as timeless. Of course only time will tell...
pclmulqdq 4y ago
Rameau, who had a pretty different style from Bach (taking after Couperin and the French style) was 1683.
coldtea 4y ago
>If one of them made old, unfashionable music, they all must have By what logic? Did all use the same forms, in he same manner?
prvc 4y ago
>If one of them made old, unfashionable music, they all must have. Yes, he took the Gould quote out of context, which was in reference to the latter part of Bach's career. Interestingly, JSB parodied Style Galante music in Book II of the WTK here and there, for example in the B major Prelude.
isaacfrond 4y ago
Vivaldi is born in 1678

acheron 4y ago

I’ll put in a plug for the Netherlands Bach society’s “All of Bach” project. https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/allofbach https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/allofbach Also if you have a local group that performs Bach works, they’re great to hear live. The Washington Bach Consort in DC puts on some good performances regularly.

jacquesm 4y ago
And: https://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/ https://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/
cloudedcordial 4y ago
Let me put a plug on this thread for Bach Stiftung's recording and its YouTube channel for many of the choral works. https://www.bachstiftung.ch/ https://www.bachstiftung.ch/
Bud 4y ago
I sing Bach professionally, for the last 25 years or so. So I just wanted to echo this recommendation. The All of Bach project is a great way to experience the best of today's Bach performance practice online, for free. It's a great gift to world culture.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  It's great what you can do when there is no copyright. Imagine all of the worlds music to be open to re-performance like that without a bunch of rent seeking.

telesilla 4y ago

Bach's life is so hidden from us in terms of letters from him, but we know enough to write some pretty good biographies. My personal favorite is Music in the Castle of Heaven, by John Eliot Gardiner the conductor. Who knows Bach better than those who know his music so intimately? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17883941-bach https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17883941-bach I also recommend learning a few notes on the keyboard and playing something of his, perhaps the first prelude of the collection they mention in the article. It's magnificent, how he plays with time and harmony.

diego_moita 4y ago
The book is indeed good. For those wanting a sample of Gardiner's knowledge I'd recommend the documentary presented by him "Bach - A Passionate Life" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZVn9NZqyxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZVn9NZqyxs
eternalban 4y ago
Thinking of gifting this. Is this for adults or would you think a budding composer aged 10 would benefit from it?
- telesilla 4y ago
  I'd say it's a bit dry for a young person but you could find them instead a beautiful rendition of his own manuscript. This would be a lifelong treasure if you could find something very well made, or a simple cheaper poster. https://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/item104654.html https://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/item104654.html Eg. https://www.etsy.com/listing/1302262260/johann-sebastian-bach-music-score?ref=share_v4_lx https://www.etsy.com/listing/1302262260/johann-sebastian-bac...
  - eternalban 4y ago
    Thank you!

tgv 4y ago

Fluff, or if you prefer: a highly circumlocutory string of half connected sentences and paragraphs around not knowing the exact origins of the Well-Tempered Clavier. Book 1, that is. It doesn't even mention the second book.

ask_b123 4y ago
Might be fluff but I still got to discover the existence of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach. Also, the 2nd book is mentioned in the last sentence.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  The number of Bach family people with their own Wikipedia page is probably some kind of record for a family that old: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Aidevah 4y ago
Yes. It's very difficult to say anything interesting or revealing about music that cannot otherwise be understood or felt by listening to an intelligent performance. Most people are incapable of describing "the music itself", so most writings on music are biographical, as is the case here. It really makes you appreciate how rare writers like Charles Rosen are.

devindotcom 4y ago

Love the Well-Tempered Clavier! I recommend listening to the harpsichord versions, which emphasize the individual notes and tempo, since (IMO) these were not really meant as expressive, emotional pieces to be interpreted liberally on pianoforte. That doesn't mean they can't be played or enjoyed that way, but I think the harpsichord (which Bach would have composed and played for) is the better way to hear it first. So find a harpsichord version that works for you - there are still many styles to choose from, but the works are short so you can feel out an artist even with a 30-second preview. The very first track, BWV 846, is an excellent litmus test. I've listened to the whole thing in sequence many times and the pieces are paired (as the article notes) for actual reasons, but now I like to put it on random and see if I can remember how pieces go without being primed by their position. Wonderful collection of music.

jacquesm 4y ago
Harpsichord is not for everybody, listening to it for hours on end can be quite grating. Glenn Gould has a very nice version that seems to me to strike a nice balance between being true to the original and using an instrument that is a bit gentler on the ear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CVlBSgj0bk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CVlBSgj0bk
- olau 4y ago
  In my opinion, Gould had some things that worked for him, but also some that certainly didn't. Like the link you sent, the fact that he's staccatoing the broken chords in the first prelude... Why? It's horrible. If you want something on the rigid tempo/clear notes end, I would instead recommend this Thomas Schwan recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IImakFsEHL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IImakFsEHL8 But actually if you don't know Bach, I would start with the gentle András Schiff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugc5FZsycAw&t=181s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugc5FZsycAw&t=181s I agree with the parent that listening to harpsichord recordings does give you something different from the piano recordings. I don't agree with the expressive pianoforte part, though. As far as I'm aware Bach never left any instructions to that end. Also as far as I'm aware, at the time musicians were expected to breath life into the pieces on their own, deciding tempo, dynamics (sound volume) etc. according to their abilities and the customs at the time. This idea of a piece being set in stone with only one correct interpretation, or at least only small variations allowed, is, I think, a much later idea. You can see it start in say a composition by Chopin that will have detailed execution instructions, and really set in with pop songs in the past 70 years. As I gather, around the time of Bach there were several different models of both harpsichords and clavichords around in addition to organs, all with relatively different tonal qualities. If you listen to harpsichord recordings, you'll note that they actually do customize the tempo locally (rubato) to infuse life into the pieces: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNQ-sUvSiV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNQ-sUvSiV8 You cannot vary the dynamics quickly on a harpsichord. Clavichords are much more expressive, though. You can even make a vibrato (Bebung): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oCGNwDokT0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oCGNwDokT0 I think Bach wrote these pieces so that people, including his own children, could play them at home, whether on a harpsichord or clavichord or something else, and I also think he intended the players to use their instrument to its fullest potential. Why wouldn't he? I have a hard time believing he wouldn't himself graduate the dynamics on a clavichord. I also think that part of what makes his music ethereal is that it actually does generalize over many instruments, even later instruments like the modern pianoforte, but also something like a guitar. You can find guitar players on Youtube delivering Bach that sounds great. He was a master of harmony.

lalalandland 4y ago

"A camera pans down from high in a church to focus on a stone bust of a typically ill-tempered looking Johann Sebastian Bach. It’s 1962 and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) is making a short film about the composer, presented by the pianist Glenn Gould. He’s playing Bach’s Fugue in E-flat major on the organ, initially off-camera. He completes the short piece, swivels round on his stool, and ad-libs the following: Select and enter your email address" I thought the Firefox Reader text was a AI piece. Haha

AlbertCory 4y ago

The movie TÁR opens with a music class where Prof. Tár plays the Prelude in C for a reluctant student who says he can't relate to Bach because he was a hetero white guy. All he can say is "You play very well." I've played that, of course, since there aren't any conventionally difficult parts in it. There is something about that piece that just gets inside you. That has to be the definition of a really great work of art: you can't say what, exactly, is great about it, but somehow it's just there. I always wonder what Bach would have said about it. "Oh, yeah, that. Just something I tossed off."

jacquesm 4y ago
> I've played that, of course, since there aren't any conventionally difficult parts in it. ouch. > "Oh, yeah, that. Just something I tossed off." What I wouldn't give for a couple of hours watching JS Bach at work improvising or composing. Just concentrated listening to all of Bach's works is a massive undertaking, it makes you wonder how he found the time to set it all down in between all of his other duties.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  > ouch Really? Sorry. I just meant it's nothing like Liszt or a Chopin Ballade, i.e. unplayable for someone like me.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Plenty of the WTK is perfectly unplayable for someone like me :) In fact, if I'm honest probably all of it, that won't stop me from trying though.
    - AlbertCory 4y ago
      Same here. The C Prelude, though: that one I can do. No chords; no eighths; no dotted notes. At one point in his career, Bill Evans was dissatisfied with his playing, and spend a year or so sight-reading the WTC. But then, he was Bill Evans.

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prvc 4y ago

Many inaccuracies in this article. The Well Tempered Keyboard was certainly a deliberate realization of a particular concept, which makes use of several already-written preludes. Also, egregiously: >a system of tuning that’s become standard (“well-tempered”). Nothing in his description hints at what these short pieces really are – deep investigations into the character of each key This system of tuning is obscure, and seldom-used (only occasionally by historical enthusiasts). Possibly confused with equal temperament here. Much less ability for the keys to have different "characters" with equal temperament as well! >providing for his huge family – 20 children from two marriages 20 births total, yes, but never 20 children alive at the same time, unfortunately. >Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach’s music can be dazzling, elegant and highly innovative, but we are unlikely to mark the 300th anniversary of even his best piece. Hopefully, "we" will be more enlightened than that in the coming few decades.

TylerE 4y ago
For that matter, JS Bach himself very obscure as a composer during his lifetime, and for 50 years none of his works were in print... and many still weren't until the late 19th century. Any fame he had during his life or the period after was for his virtuoso organ performance.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Up until the late 1800s, "Bach" referred to his son, CPE Bach. Liszt, Chopin, and other piano virtuosi of the time really helped revive the music of JS Bach, when a lot of his best works were previously thought of as "too hard" or "not worth it."
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    There is a great - and probably out of print - book called 'Men, Women and Pianos', by Arthur Loesser, 1954. Highly recommended to get better insight into how the piano was invented, worked its way into society and how the various composers rose to the spotlight and/or were forgotten again. It's the best researched book on the subject I've read.

ramesh31 4y ago

Am I alone in finding Gould intolerable? I don't have the musical expertise to criticize him technically in depth, but I can best describe his interpretations as "robotic" sounding. Like listening to a player piano.

jacquesm 4y ago
Gould played Bach the way it is written, perfect tempo, minimal ornamentation, that may come across as 'robotic' to you but it's actually the style that most people that are into baroque favor. If you don't like Gould for Bach may I suggest Dinu Lipatti? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7PNFDrcqmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7PNFDrcqmY And if you had not heard about him maybe dive a bit deeper and see what else you like, he's an amazing pianist that unfortunately was born before really great quality recordings were made but what's there is well worth listening to. His '(unfortunately)Last Recital' is a masterpiece. Enjoy!
- easybake 4y ago
  > Gould played Bach the way it is written, perfect tempo, minimal ornamentation, that may come across as 'robotic' to you but it's actually the style that most people that are into baroque favor. Indeed! These compositions were ...composed "for the profit and use of musical youth desirous of learning, and especially for the pastime of those already skilled in this study".[1], which I don't think is directly mentioned in the article except maybe from this quote by Gould: > ...“according to the musical disposition of that day, he was generations behind it”. It takes skill to play these compositions the way they were written. Piano is not my forte but what effort I have put into learning these tunes was well worth it. > If you don't like Gould for Bach may I suggest Dinu Lipatti? When I compare the two different performers, Gould sounds like he's playing to a metronome and Dinu Lipatti is playing to a pendulum. > And if you had not heard about him maybe dive a bit deeper and see what else you like, he's an amazing pianist that unfortunately was born before really great quality recordings were made but what's there is well worth listening to. Enjoy! Thank you for sharing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier
4y ago

eternalban 4y ago

> Mozart was born six years after Bach died I love these magical moments in history. Some have it as 'the muses' traversing the globe and inspiring humanity in the arts and sciences. Golden ages pop up at various points in time and place, and then the cluster of amazing talent that are typically the greats of the respective civilization. Those few centuries in Europe were blazing with talent. I think an interesting path through history of Humanity could simply follow the golden ages, wherever they are.

handedness 4y ago
The 18th child of Johann Sebastian Bach, Johann Christian Bach—AKA "The English Bach", "The London Bach," or "John Bach"—spent five months tutoring the 8-year-old Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in musical composition and very likey was, after Mozart's father, the second biggest personal musical influence on the child. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach#Legacy The Bach family tree alone is an incredible cluster of ability, training, and dedication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family#Partial_family_tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family#Partial_family_tre...
- eternalban 4y ago
  "influenced Haydn" as well. Wow. Thanks for the link. That piece by him was pleasant.

motohagiography 4y ago

Such timing. I'm working through one of the Preludes (C minor) from the WTC now, but a rare guitar arrangement. There are things about his work it takes (for me) to about the 1000th time I play them to apprecaite, and I can see why real musicians leave his work to later in life. Grinding through some of his less complicated pieces is achievable for someone unschooled in it (like me), but when you play them, you can hear and feel where you stand as a musican, but moreso, as a being. They really are spiritual exercises in an Aquinian sense, written for an audience of one. That said, I also think the amount of woo musicians bring to talking about the work is inversely proportional to their level of ability and technique, so ymmv. I have more than one crackpot idea about him, but in the mean time, it's just a pleasure to puzzle through the pieces.

YossarianFrPrez 4y ago

For an impressive and beautiful version of the first Well-tempered Clavier prelude, check out Bobby McFerrin singing it while he has the crowd simultaneously sing Gonoud's Ave Maria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14LcvpXmb74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14LcvpXmb74

ralferoo 4y ago
Somehow I'd never heard of Bobby McFerrin before. Watching that video (which is amazing), led me to the full performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WodODxpTbpA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WodODxpTbpA
- vjerancrnjak 4y ago
  Similar performance by Jacob Collier and the audience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KsF309XpJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KsF309XpJo Quite exhilarating. I think at some point it was combined to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3U7TPZxbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3U7TPZxbI
- jacquesm 4y ago
  He's a very nice man and a very interesting musician as well. You may know his breakout hit 'Don't worry, be happy'.