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The question feels very complex when framed like in the article. In reality I think it's two separate but connected questions that society should be able to ans

• runnerup 4y ago
  Also, where should people be homeless? Literally I cannot pay rent next month and have no one willing to take me in. Where should I go? AFAIK there are zero legal options for me when I’m unable to pay for an apartment. I do not own a car. If I insist on being an upright citizen and following the law…do I just show up to a police station on January 1st and turn myself in for vagrancy and hope they throw me in jail?
  • pigeons 4y ago
    What part of the world do you live in.
    • runnerup 4y ago
      USA
  • Retric 4y ago
    Homeless shelters are a short term solution. Various housing programs are available depending on location, but tend to be really slow.
    • runnerup 4y ago
      There are widespread reports that there is no shelter availability for single men in my metro area. I suspect that multiple times per week I’ll be unable to find a cot in a shelter. Not sure what the legal thing to do then is. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Emergency-domestic-violence-shelters-struggle-to-14878668.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/... I’m also a bit concerned about the safety and conditions in the shelters, being that close to unpredictable strangers. But I’d prefer that over doing anything illegal.
      • TylerE 4y ago
        Any chance you'd qualify for Section 8? https://hchatexas.org/housing-choice-voucher-program/voucher-holders/ https://hchatexas.org/housing-choice-voucher-program/voucher... It can take a while to go through all that, though. You can see available inventory here: https://www.myhousingsearch.com/dbh/SearchHousingSubmit.html?ch=HCHA&type=rental&region_id=30507&c_b_b_h=&return_listings=return_listings_available&s8=t&bedroom=-1&bathroom=-1.0&low_rent=0&high_rent=1400&exclude_waitlist=f&building_type=-1&senior_housing=4&zipcode=&default_zipcode=Optional+ZIP+Code%5Bs%5D&bus=optional&smoking_status_id=optional&language_spoken_id=1&nosp=False&inclusive_group_and_pops=f&showmax=50&submit=CLICK+HERE+TO+SEARCH https://www.myhousingsearch.com/dbh/SearchHousingSubmit.html... (Disclaimer: My day gig, speaking on behalf of meself only, etc. We are sponsored by the HCHA as their housing search provider.)
        • ebiester 4y ago
          And three years from now, he could have a house. Is section 8 fast anywhere?
          • TylerE 4y ago
            Probably not. If it takes 3 years to get through.. that means now is the time to apply!
      • bittercynic 4y ago
  • p0pcult 4y ago
    Do you have a cryptocurrency address? Can I help?
    • runnerup 4y ago
      I’m not suffering that much and we shouldn’t make HN a place to spin a yarn for cash, or we’ll lose what makes HN great. The story is largely truthful, except for the character who has a pathological need to follow every rule. In reality, I’ll be late on my rent, my various credit scores will take a hit, but I’m not going to get evicted that quickly and should be on my feet again before the end of January. The lack of employment is entirely my fault, with the peripheral assistance of crippling anxiety and self-doubt. But I can choose to make ends meet bagging groceries, etc for $15-17/hour. I’m also a reasonably median performance programmer in C++ and Python so I should be able to find salaried work in the next month or so! If I was actually post-eviction / move-out negotiation with my apartment I’d probably sleep in a car if I owned one or set up a very hidden tent far away from other homeless people near a $10/mo gym with showers and lockers. Those plans may be illegal currently, but they are also still probably the best choices for a homeless person looking for work. Done properly, this doesn’t result in harm, inconvenience, or cost to the public. IMO, if someone can notice me enough to complain about me…I’m not being safe.
      • noobermin 4y ago
        Best of luck to you.
  • dilap 4y ago
    I think you meant this as a rhetorical question, but I'll go ahead and answer it anyway. The practical answer is you do become homeless, but not out in the open -- you'll set up a tent somewhere somewhat hidden (maybe in the middle of a park, for example), and hope nobody notices it. Every so often your camp will get discovered and cleared out, which will be inconvenient. It certainly seems pretty mean-spirited to harrass the homeless in this way, but it does have the benefit of (mostly) preserving the beauty and safety of public space.
    • runnerup 4y ago
      That seems illegal? I’d like to follow the laws. I am in the USA.
      • dilap 4y ago
        Hard to follow the law without a certain amount of cash, unfortunately. If it comes down to it, I'd definitely recommend trying to get your hands on a van before going full homeless.
  • chaostheory 4y ago
    Homeless shelters exist for this purpose. There’s also HUD or similar entities if you’re not in the US. There are also private nonprofits like churches that help with homelessness
    • runnerup 4y ago
      There are widespread reports that there is no shelter availability for single men in my metro area. I think I’ll be able to get a cot some nights, but I suspect that multiple times per week I’ll be unable to find a cot in a shelter within a 4-hour walk of city center. It’s hard to go around and ask at each shelter every night…there’s a limited time window for checkin so if my first two tries are full I probably won’t make it to a third option before they lock up for the night. Not sure what the legal thing to do then is. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Emergency-domestic-violence-shelters-struggle-to-14878668.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/... I’m also a bit concerned about the safety and conditions in the shelters, being that close to unpredictable strangers. But I’d prefer that over doing anything illegal.
    • mullingitover 4y ago
      > There are also private nonprofits like churches that help with homelessness It's honestly shocking that the US has absurdly wealthy churches and we have greater than zero homeless people on the streets. Helping the poor is the core tenet of the christian faith. If they practiced what they preach, it should be impossible to lay down on the street for more than five minutes and not be swarmed with offers for help.
      • RobertRoberts 4y ago
        Many people _refuse_ housing for these reasons: (I've been directly told these, or have seen them reported) * Housing is dangerous/scary (robbery, rape, physical violence, etc...) * Housing is a conspiracy (to control people or other irrational ideas) * The rules of housing are too restricting. (can't have a pet, visitors, noise rules, cleanliness rules, curfew rules, behavior rules, etc...) There are others as well, but can't recall immediately. A church can't fix these problems, no matter how rich.
  • anon291 4y ago
    > Literally I cannot pay rent next month and have no one willing to take me in. Well in most cities in the United States, there are numerous open spots in rent assistance or shelter programs. For example, in my city of Portland, there is a lot of money spent tackling this problem. In fact, each night, the city has empty rooms available for anyone, but they go unused. Unfortunately, part of the problem is the narrative pushed by the media that America has no social welfare. We have quite a lot. Unfortunately, the narrative we don't prevents people from seeking it out. This is similar to how narratives about COVID swamping hospitals led to so many people not seeking medical intervention that they died or let a preventable illness go untreated. And it's what caused so many hospital closures. Moreover, if you cannot pay the rent next month, you can contact your local st vincent de paul, and they will often cover it for you: https://www.svdphouston.org/ https://www.svdphouston.org/ Below you said you are simply going to be late, and able to resume making payments in January. If that is the case, there are numerous programs available that will help you to make your rent so you don't take the credit hit. Again, if you lived in my city of Portland, I know several charities that will simply pay your rent no questions asked, not even expecting the money back. Please contact your local social services agency or one of these charities. Many have funds that go unused each month.
• nonameiguess 4y ago
  I happen to live in downtown Dallas, near enough to homeless encampments to walk past them pretty frequently. Tents all over the place near highway overpasses. There was a tent set up behind the Dallas Police Memorial across the street from city hall for about six months. The exact same tent, which never moved. The main branch public library, also across the street from city hall, and a bridge near me where there is a large bus depot, are nearly refugee camps. You can't walk six feet without stepping on someone if you try to go by them when it's dark. My take on this is what else are they supposed to do? Unless they're all killed, they have to live somewhere, and if they can't hold jobs and/or can't obtain real housing, what option is there other than to live on the street? I don't see how this can be made illegal. You're arresting people simply for existing and not being able to pay rent. What is this supposed to help? These are at least thousands of people in one city, hell, one neighborhood. If they were all sent to prison, there'd be no space left for real criminals. As for shitting on the street, again, what else are they supposed to do? If there aren't public toilets available to use anywhere, that doesn't change the fact that they're animals with digestive systems that require them to defecate on a regular basis. Hell, with all the walks I go for early in the morning, I have three times in the past six months had to shit on a sidewalk, not because I'm some belligerent lawbreaker or even because I don't have a toilet, but simply because I couldn't get home fast enough when it came on and there was nowhere else to go. It's not even a matter of whether businesses with toilets will let you use them. There aren't even any businesses open at 4:30 in the morning. I don't even see how this is a matter of politics so much as practicality. There are simply so many people that having the police, courts, and prisons try to deal with all of them would leave them unable to effectively do anything else they're supposed to do. I doubt it even works as a deterrent. Prison isn't any worse than how they're already living and the inability to reintegrate into society means nothing if they were already unable to integrate into society in the first place. As it stands, sleeping in public and setting up camp in these places is illegal, but they may as well pass a law saying eating is illegal. How can it possibly be enforced? People can't just not sleep and shit, and if they don't have the right to occupy any private space, public space is the only space left. Edit: I can see someone else already said something similar and got immediately downvoted with the response that they should go to a shelter. Okay, as far as I can tell, the people are sleeping where they are right now because it's within walking distance of aid facilities that are all located downtown. This includes shelters. But these shelters don't have anywhere near enough room for all of these people, and they aren't faced with a "temporary" problem. I've lived here long enough to see the same people and recognize them over the course of years. Some of them have clearly lived on the street for decades.
• Tiktaalik 4y ago
  The laws themselves are unjust. In NA we don't build the housing we badly need, making it arduous and illegal to build in most places, which has spiked the price of having a home, making it unaffordable to many, and then we've turned around and made it illegal to not have a home. That there are so many people "breaking the law" is a self created problem by refusing to build homes for people to live in.
  • souplesse 4y ago
    While this might seem pedantic, is it actually illegal not to have a home?
    • Tiktaalik 4y ago
      Not literally but effectively. There is not enough housing available that is affordable to people whose only income is whatever the minimums the government can provide. Accordingly they're homeless. There's also not enough temporary shelters for people who are homeless, so the only option is to sleep in a tent outdoors. Sleeping in a tent outdoors is against the law. So in effect there is no real alternative for these persons but to break the law. Supreme Courts in Canada (unsure on the USA) have noted this fact, that people have literally no choice but to break the law, and have accordingly ruled that cities are not legally able to stop people from setting up tents in public land (parks) if there is no other housing options available. (Cities are however able to put time limits on tenting in parks)
      • toast0 4y ago
        > Supreme Courts in Canada (unsure on the USA) Washington State Supreme Court has ruled similarly.
  • xyzelement 4y ago
    // In NA we don't build the housing we badly need, making it arduous and illegal to build in most places, which has spiked the price of having a home, making it unaffordable to many As a capitalist who believes that everything is driven by supply and demand, I agree that enabling more build would drive down prices. But that's completely irrelevant to the topic here. We're talking about people so severely mentally ill that "forced treatment" is a consideration. These aren't the people who are going to be buying/renting houses in a normal way regardless of availability and cost. We're talking about people where the options are street life, incarceration, or institutionalization.
• LarryMullins 4y ago
  Such laws should be enforced, they are good laws that benefit almost everybody. If somebody has a mental illness that renders them unable to comply, they should be permitted to receive treatment in lieu of legal punishment. If they prefer not to be treated, treatment should not be forced on them but they should instead face the normal legal punishment for their crimes. And of course, funding/supporting programs and regulations that reduce the scope of the problem is a good investment. This likely entails providing housing to people to preempt the issue of those people trashing up public parks. But the laws against that sort of behavior will still be necessary because some people will choose not to avail themselves of those programs and will behave antisocially no matter how much help you try to give them.
• deleted 4y ago
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