7 ms·

After so many incidents with Wells Fargo, doesn't this point to something deeply ingrained in that company's culture? Such that even executives cannot change s

After so many incidents with Wells Fargo, doesn't this point to something deeply ingrained in that company's culture? Such that even executives cannot change something about the system at the company that they have created? There must be some bad, little, everyday incentives permeating working at WF that causes the people there to produce these bad behaviors year after year. You can blame and change the execs, but they're not even in control of (or maybe even aware of?) the systems that are making people behave the way they do?

kodyo 4y ago
There is nothing forcing anybody to bank with Wells Fargo. Their customers are clearly content, because they're still Wells Fargo customers. Edit: shit, someone else pointed out that they buy mortgages. Nevermind.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  A previous company I worked for also used them for 401Ks, but I believe they've since sold off that business unit.
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  My oldest credit file is a credit card that I don't use anymore but it is owned by WF. If I close it, my credit score is negatively impacted by losing a decades old credit line. I don't particularly care about my credit score, and this sort of lock-in is pretty low friction, but changing banks can have costs. I hate them, over the years that I banked with them, they have consistently been a bad bank. I think I have at least two complaints that went to the CFPB with them (both ended in my favor). I switched my banking activity to another institution years ago, but I do still have accounts open with them. I'm a financially saavy rich white dude with a degree, and I still find it hard to sever the relationship. Imagine how lesser advantaged people feel. If you're choice is between WF and BOA because of geography or whatever, and you're used to financial institutions being shitty, why bother switching from one predatory institution to another?
  - bena 4y ago
    I was about to say, Wells Fargo was sold my mortgage literally the day after I signed it. I originated the mortgage with a local-ish bank and it still wound up in their hands.
  - PascLeRasc 4y ago
    The idea that closing your oldest credit line immediately puts you out on the street penniless is a redditism that's been parroted too much. That old account closed in good standing will continue to support your credit score, and if you have another credit card that's been open for a few years, the score hit will be 10-15 points. You shouldn't feel like you're trapped with Wells forever.
    - Terretta 4y ago
      Penniless, no. Dings your credit score, absolutely.
      - tacticalturtle 4y ago
        Assuming it’s in good standing when closing, it generally will fall off your credit score in 10 years. That gives you 10 years to build up a credit history with other accounts. I closed an ancient Bank of America account several years ago because I didn’t want to do business with them anymore. It still contributes to my credit score. By the time it falls off, the other accounts will more than make up for it.
    - dghlsakjg 4y ago
      I get that, and like I said I genuinely don't care that much about my credit score. I'm just trying to give a real world example of why someone might keep doing business with a known unethical entity. It comes down to: I know that they suck, but there is a real non-zero cost to switching (my time and credit score), while continuing to do business with them is free.
  - ct0 4y ago
    Can you tell me about your experience with the CFPB. I just submitted a complaint against "Cardmember Services" who is the defacto disputing group on behalf of many banks. Cardmember Services does not seem to be acting in good faith which prompted my complaint.
jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
I worked for a Wells Fargo joint venture when I was younger, doing credit research for mortgages during the early 00's bubble. I very quickly came to the conclusion that all of their quality assurance rules were designed to whitewash, not catch, fraud, let alone simple mistakes. No one cared if what was going on our reports was total nonsense, so long as it was nonsense that fit the rules the underwriters had. Basically the job was to research negative items on credit reports, and if I could get the creditor to say one of a dozen things, I could take it off the report and get it rescored. So a lot of phone calling. There was a guy in my unit that'd been there years. He made less than 1 or 2 phone calls a day, but yet cleared the exceeds expectations number of reports consistently. I realized he was just never calling anyone, and writing up total fabricated notes on the files. But because the quality assurance sampled random calls, not random files, this was totally accepted. This was great for WF: workers would commit fraud, but only in the direction that got more loans sold, and if it ever got noticed, they could just fire the call center worker and claim it was a "bad apple." When I saw the story about WF branch managers opening accounts in customers names without permission I wasn't surprised in the slightest. I believe the entire company leadership is consciously behind this sort of winking internal corruption that just so happens to increase the bottom line and bonuses for everyone involved.
ectopod 4y ago
Why on earth would you think this? The executives don't change the system because it continues to make them money and they suffer no consequences for the company's malfeasance. Maybe this fine is enough to rebalance the equation but I doubt it.
mjklin 4y ago
“Lord Coke gravely informs us that corporations cannot be excommunicated, because they have no souls, and they appear to be as destitute of every feeling as if they had also no bowels.... There is in truth but one point through which they are vulnerable, and that is the keyhole of the cash box.” - Hugo Grotius

kodyo 4y ago

There is nothing forcing anybody to bank with Wells Fargo. Their customers are clearly content, because they're still Wells Fargo customers. Edit: shit, someone else pointed out that they buy mortgages. Nevermind.

hotpotamus 4y ago
A previous company I worked for also used them for 401Ks, but I believe they've since sold off that business unit.
dghlsakjg 4y ago
My oldest credit file is a credit card that I don't use anymore but it is owned by WF. If I close it, my credit score is negatively impacted by losing a decades old credit line. I don't particularly care about my credit score, and this sort of lock-in is pretty low friction, but changing banks can have costs. I hate them, over the years that I banked with them, they have consistently been a bad bank. I think I have at least two complaints that went to the CFPB with them (both ended in my favor). I switched my banking activity to another institution years ago, but I do still have accounts open with them. I'm a financially saavy rich white dude with a degree, and I still find it hard to sever the relationship. Imagine how lesser advantaged people feel. If you're choice is between WF and BOA because of geography or whatever, and you're used to financial institutions being shitty, why bother switching from one predatory institution to another?
- bena 4y ago
  I was about to say, Wells Fargo was sold my mortgage literally the day after I signed it. I originated the mortgage with a local-ish bank and it still wound up in their hands.
- PascLeRasc 4y ago
  The idea that closing your oldest credit line immediately puts you out on the street penniless is a redditism that's been parroted too much. That old account closed in good standing will continue to support your credit score, and if you have another credit card that's been open for a few years, the score hit will be 10-15 points. You shouldn't feel like you're trapped with Wells forever.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    Penniless, no. Dings your credit score, absolutely.
    - tacticalturtle 4y ago
      Assuming it’s in good standing when closing, it generally will fall off your credit score in 10 years. That gives you 10 years to build up a credit history with other accounts. I closed an ancient Bank of America account several years ago because I didn’t want to do business with them anymore. It still contributes to my credit score. By the time it falls off, the other accounts will more than make up for it.
  - dghlsakjg 4y ago
    I get that, and like I said I genuinely don't care that much about my credit score. I'm just trying to give a real world example of why someone might keep doing business with a known unethical entity. It comes down to: I know that they suck, but there is a real non-zero cost to switching (my time and credit score), while continuing to do business with them is free.
- ct0 4y ago
  Can you tell me about your experience with the CFPB. I just submitted a complaint against "Cardmember Services" who is the defacto disputing group on behalf of many banks. Cardmember Services does not seem to be acting in good faith which prompted my complaint.

jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago

I worked for a Wells Fargo joint venture when I was younger, doing credit research for mortgages during the early 00's bubble. I very quickly came to the conclusion that all of their quality assurance rules were designed to whitewash, not catch, fraud, let alone simple mistakes. No one cared if what was going on our reports was total nonsense, so long as it was nonsense that fit the rules the underwriters had. Basically the job was to research negative items on credit reports, and if I could get the creditor to say one of a dozen things, I could take it off the report and get it rescored. So a lot of phone calling. There was a guy in my unit that'd been there years. He made less than 1 or 2 phone calls a day, but yet cleared the exceeds expectations number of reports consistently. I realized he was just never calling anyone, and writing up total fabricated notes on the files. But because the quality assurance sampled random calls, not random files, this was totally accepted. This was great for WF: workers would commit fraud, but only in the direction that got more loans sold, and if it ever got noticed, they could just fire the call center worker and claim it was a "bad apple." When I saw the story about WF branch managers opening accounts in customers names without permission I wasn't surprised in the slightest. I believe the entire company leadership is consciously behind this sort of winking internal corruption that just so happens to increase the bottom line and bonuses for everyone involved.

ectopod 4y ago

Why on earth would you think this? The executives don't change the system because it continues to make them money and they suffer no consequences for the company's malfeasance. Maybe this fine is enough to rebalance the equation but I doubt it.

mjklin 4y ago

“Lord Coke gravely informs us that corporations cannot be excommunicated, because they have no souls, and they appear to be as destitute of every feeling as if they had also no bowels.... There is in truth but one point through which they are vulnerable, and that is the keyhole of the cash box.” - Hugo Grotius