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This is yet another example of why direct referendums are a powerful mechanism for bypassing paid-off politicians who act on behalf of a few oligarchs to block

This is yet another example of why direct referendums are a powerful mechanism for bypassing paid-off politicians who act on behalf of a few oligarchs to block popular policy changes.

ISL 4y ago
Direct referenda solve this particular problem, but create other conflicts: Referendum 1: the State shall not raise taxes in any way without a vote of the people. Referendum 2: the State shall fully fund the education of children living in the State
- noworld 4y ago
  Referendum 2 sounds a little like a vote of the people to raise taxes.
  - sidlls 4y ago
    It isn't, though, and in fact often such referendums can't be funded through taxes because of referendums like the other one in the comment you responded to. So what happens is other programs suffer.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - asah 4y ago
      AFAICT, that's the point.
- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  That's only a problem if you can't cut other services.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
TheRealPomax 4y ago
"You voted for me to represent you! Now I will not do that!" would, in any reasonable system, be grounds for dismissal. And is, in many countries. Come on New York, you can change this.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  This is a bit silly. Right-to-repair (and to be clear, I'm all for it) wasn't on the NY ballot. There wasn't a referendum, it wasn't anyone's key campaign issue, etc. Dismissing representatives for a vote on any one issue would pretty quickly leave us with zero. (As the edit to the article indicates, the bill isn't subject to a pocket veto, either.)
  - rlpb 4y ago
    > This is a bit silly. It's not. The kind of behaviour being discussed is corruption. It wouldn't be dismissing representatives for a vote on any one issue; it would be dismissing representatives for corruption. But the electorate prefers to re-elect corrupt politicians as long as the corruption is in their favor, so the behaviour continues.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      It's not inherently corrupt for a representative to vote in a way that's not a perfect representation of their constituents' opinion polling. There's no allegation that the Governor has been bribed, the bill becomes law soon even if she doesn't sign it, and it's only been on her desk for two business days.
      - rlpb 4y ago
        > It's not inherently corrupt for a representative to vote in a way that's not a perfect representation of their constituents' opinion polling. That's not what we're discussing. Up-thread, I responded to: "...paid-off politicians who act on behalf of a few oligarchs to block popular policy changes". That behavior, if it is happening, is what I'm claiming is corruption, even that kind of behaviour is the norm nowadays, and voters don't vote this kind of corruption out, or even call it out as corruption. > There's no allegation that the Governor has been bribed... Correct. The allegation is as I quoted above. It is not my allegation; I'm merely discussing appropriate voting behaviour if it were true.
throwaway2214 4y ago
like brexit? you will be surprised what would happen if USA switches to direct democracy
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  Many states have referendum style systems, such as California. Heck, a county voted to split from California. That won't happen though.
  - HDThoreaun 4y ago
    And those systems have created some massive problems. Prop 13 is one of the worst laws in the country, but the state is unable to fix it.
    - asah 4y ago
      Actually, Prop 13 has millions of proponents and polls suggest that most are appear to be fully aware of the consequences. https://projects.scpr.org/prop-13/history/ https://projects.scpr.org/prop-13/history/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13#Tenure_of_households https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13... https://www.google.com/search?q=how+popular+is+prop+13+in+california https://www.google.com/search?q=how+popular+is+prop+13+in+ca...
      - HDThoreaun 4y ago
        Obviously if people didn't support it then it would be repealed. That doesn't make it a good law. It is directly responsible for the housing affordability crisis in california. That's good for homeowners so they won't repeal it, but it's very bad for the state and everyone else. Which is the whole point here, direct democracy leads to 51% of the population shafting the other 49%.
        RestlessMind 4y ago
        > That's good for homeowners so they won't repeal it, but it's very bad for the state and everyone else. Homeowners are a big part of the state. "everyone else" must be a small minority. If you think it is a big enough part of the population, feel free to bring a prop to repeal prop 13. My bet is that any attempt to repeal it will lose in a landslide based on what happened in 2020[1] when they attempted a partial repeal. [1] https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_15,_Tax_on_Commercial_and_Industrial_Properties_for_Education_and_Local_Government_Funding_Initiative_(2020) https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_15,_Tax_on_Co...

This is yet another example of why direct referendums are a powerful mechanism for bypassing paid-off politicians who act on behalf of a few oligarchs to block popular policy changes.

ISL 4y ago

Direct referenda solve this particular problem, but create other conflicts: Referendum 1: the State shall not raise taxes in any way without a vote of the people. Referendum 2: the State shall fully fund the education of children living in the State

noworld 4y ago
Referendum 2 sounds a little like a vote of the people to raise taxes.
- sidlls 4y ago
  It isn't, though, and in fact often such referendums can't be funded through taxes because of referendums like the other one in the comment you responded to. So what happens is other programs suffer.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - asah 4y ago
    AFAICT, that's the point.
CuriouslyC 4y ago
That's only a problem if you can't cut other services.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

TheRealPomax 4y ago

"You voted for me to represent you! Now I will not do that!" would, in any reasonable system, be grounds for dismissal. And is, in many countries. Come on New York, you can change this.

ceejayoz 4y ago
This is a bit silly. Right-to-repair (and to be clear, I'm all for it) wasn't on the NY ballot. There wasn't a referendum, it wasn't anyone's key campaign issue, etc. Dismissing representatives for a vote on any one issue would pretty quickly leave us with zero. (As the edit to the article indicates, the bill isn't subject to a pocket veto, either.)
- rlpb 4y ago
  > This is a bit silly. It's not. The kind of behaviour being discussed is corruption. It wouldn't be dismissing representatives for a vote on any one issue; it would be dismissing representatives for corruption. But the electorate prefers to re-elect corrupt politicians as long as the corruption is in their favor, so the behaviour continues.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    It's not inherently corrupt for a representative to vote in a way that's not a perfect representation of their constituents' opinion polling. There's no allegation that the Governor has been bribed, the bill becomes law soon even if she doesn't sign it, and it's only been on her desk for two business days.
    - rlpb 4y ago
      > It's not inherently corrupt for a representative to vote in a way that's not a perfect representation of their constituents' opinion polling. That's not what we're discussing. Up-thread, I responded to: "...paid-off politicians who act on behalf of a few oligarchs to block popular policy changes". That behavior, if it is happening, is what I'm claiming is corruption, even that kind of behaviour is the norm nowadays, and voters don't vote this kind of corruption out, or even call it out as corruption. > There's no allegation that the Governor has been bribed... Correct. The allegation is as I quoted above. It is not my allegation; I'm merely discussing appropriate voting behaviour if it were true.

throwaway2214 4y ago

like brexit? you will be surprised what would happen if USA switches to direct democracy

bcrosby95 4y ago
Many states have referendum style systems, such as California. Heck, a county voted to split from California. That won't happen though.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  And those systems have created some massive problems. Prop 13 is one of the worst laws in the country, but the state is unable to fix it.
  - asah 4y ago
    Actually, Prop 13 has millions of proponents and polls suggest that most are appear to be fully aware of the consequences. https://projects.scpr.org/prop-13/history/ https://projects.scpr.org/prop-13/history/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13#Tenure_of_households https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13... https://www.google.com/search?q=how+popular+is+prop+13+in+california https://www.google.com/search?q=how+popular+is+prop+13+in+ca...
    - HDThoreaun 4y ago
      Obviously if people didn't support it then it would be repealed. That doesn't make it a good law. It is directly responsible for the housing affordability crisis in california. That's good for homeowners so they won't repeal it, but it's very bad for the state and everyone else. Which is the whole point here, direct democracy leads to 51% of the population shafting the other 49%.
      - RestlessMind 4y ago
        > That's good for homeowners so they won't repeal it, but it's very bad for the state and everyone else. Homeowners are a big part of the state. "everyone else" must be a small minority. If you think it is a big enough part of the population, feel free to bring a prop to repeal prop 13. My bet is that any attempt to repeal it will lose in a landslide based on what happened in 2020[1] when they attempted a partial repeal. [1] https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_15,_Tax_on_Commercial_and_Industrial_Properties_for_Education_and_Local_Government_Funding_Initiative_(2020) https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_15,_Tax_on_Co...