4 ms·

> What’s even more interesting is that even though the wrong estimate wasn’t my fault, it definitely was my problem now. As a 43yo developer, my advice is to p

> What’s even more interesting is that even though the wrong estimate wasn’t my fault, it definitely was my problem now. As a 43yo developer, my advice is to push back on this. Make it clear from the first moment that it's their problem, not yours. You can do this in multiple ways, like saying "You seem to have gotten yourself into trouble. Maybe next time, come to talk to us first so you don't make this huge mistake again". Don't give in to their smooth management talk, keep your ground. They will try to let you solve the problem, but that's impossible. Let them solve their own mistake. If it's impossible to solve, well, it's a hard lesson for them. At least in Europe, there is a huge shortage of developers. That means your employer needs you more than you need your employer (plenty of other employers out there). So stand your ground and make sure the problem stays on their end, not yours. And keep reminding them that they have to come to you for proper estimates. You can already do this as a single developer. "This needs to be finished by Monday, can you make sure it is done?", "I'll do my best" (never promise!) When they do come to you for estimates, make sure you know the difference between estimates and deadlines, and assume they don't know the difference. Make sure nobody confuses your estimates for deadlines. Better yet, never let them see your estimates, and only give the deadlines.

willcipriano 4y ago
Sometimes someone wants to push a mistake they made under the rug and in doing so they will throw your efforts under it as well. I'll solve your problem, but I'm doing it loud enough that your boss will be aware of the mistake as well. (unless you have gone to bat for me previously, generic manager with the 2.5% annual raise is going to be deaf with how loudly I solve his problem)
NAHWheatCracker 4y ago
I completely agree with you, except that I'm currently going through a situation. The project manager has made a plan that a feature would be done by the end of the year. Two data scientists have been the only people working on it for the whole quarter. They said it's not going to be ready and they haven't even gotten it working on their local machines. The project manager turns to me and I concur with the data scientists. We had less than two weeks left when we talked, since everyone is taking time off for the holiday. I said I'm not going to work on it until it's ready and he's making out like I'm insubordinate and responsible. I honestly think I'm going to be fired. It could be a good thing. Maybe I can work somewhere where this sort of thing isn't tolerated. I think a great many workplaces are like this though. Pushing back, even a bit, can paint a target.
- peteradio 4y ago
  You thought you were in a room with a nice friendly dog, all of the sudden the dog starts pacing and staring at you menacingly. You've found yourself in a bad situation for sure, but you should not consider how you tolerate a scary dog for any extended period of time. In the situation you can exit the room, get mauled, fight back and kill/incapacitate the dog. The grandparents comment applies only when there is an existing power balance in the engineers favor, if you don't put that power balance into place then their advice need not apply. Fuck your manager, if you do wind up fired let it roll off your back there was nothing you could do.
- wccrawford 4y ago
  My advice would be to use that feeling of "I might get fired" to get you started looking for a job. If you are fired, you'll have started the process early. If you aren't fired, you'll have started looking for a less-abusive (and probably more lucrative) job somewhere else. It's absolutely win-win for you.
  - NAHWheatCracker 4y ago
    I don't think being fired could every be construed as a pure win, but it has accelerated my plans of looking elsewhere.
    - wccrawford 4y ago
      Yeah, getting fired is not a win. I meant that using that feeling to look for a job is win-win, no matter what happens at your current company.
- spacemadness 4y ago
  I’m not sure of your organizational structure, and if I had to guess it probably is designed to take power away from engineers, but if you’re able to talk to a manager about your near hostile PM it might be a good time to do so so thst someone has your back. Obvious caveat that this assumes your entire management chain isn’t complete garbage, which is a big assumption considering the story you provided.
VyseofArcadia 4y ago
I have (finally!) reached the point in my career where I am comfortable with responding negatively to unreasonable deadlines. None of this, "we'll do our best" crap. The deadline was unreasonable, I will let them know it was unreasonable, the work will take as long as it takes, and if they want a good estimate they need to start with the engineers. And it's their responsibility to deal with an angry customer. The real benefit of years of software dev experience is having enough fuck you money to not be afraid of telling your boss when they're being a shithead.
lamontcg 4y ago
> As a 43yo developer, my advice is to push back on this. Make it clear from the first moment that it's their problem, not yours. Yeah you can both be positive about the fact that you will get to work on the project and deliver it. You can also make sure that they understand that the dates will almost certainly slip up front. And try to dodge anything that sounds like a promise for a deadline. The reality is that they probably don't care anywhere near as much as the tone of this article is making it sound. If they can get the deal signed and get something delivered in twice the time as was agreed to, and which isn't fully baked and may be more of a beta release, they'll be happy. And if they're not well then they've set you up for failure, and the worst thing they can do is fire you. As long as you understand that is their issue, that should relieve you of your burdens. Usually though if you come off as a "straight shooter" who is self confident then they'll remember the delivery and not the slipped schedule and bugs. What you don't want to be doing is projecting as much anxiety over deadlines and estimates as the article here does. Even if it sounds ominous that there are contractual deadlines, in reality usually neither side of the deal wants to blow up the contract if the schedule slips by 3 months (or whatever) as long it eventually gets delivered.

willcipriano 4y ago

Sometimes someone wants to push a mistake they made under the rug and in doing so they will throw your efforts under it as well. I'll solve your problem, but I'm doing it loud enough that your boss will be aware of the mistake as well. (unless you have gone to bat for me previously, generic manager with the 2.5% annual raise is going to be deaf with how loudly I solve his problem)

NAHWheatCracker 4y ago

I completely agree with you, except that I'm currently going through a situation. The project manager has made a plan that a feature would be done by the end of the year. Two data scientists have been the only people working on it for the whole quarter. They said it's not going to be ready and they haven't even gotten it working on their local machines. The project manager turns to me and I concur with the data scientists. We had less than two weeks left when we talked, since everyone is taking time off for the holiday. I said I'm not going to work on it until it's ready and he's making out like I'm insubordinate and responsible. I honestly think I'm going to be fired. It could be a good thing. Maybe I can work somewhere where this sort of thing isn't tolerated. I think a great many workplaces are like this though. Pushing back, even a bit, can paint a target.

peteradio 4y ago
You thought you were in a room with a nice friendly dog, all of the sudden the dog starts pacing and staring at you menacingly. You've found yourself in a bad situation for sure, but you should not consider how you tolerate a scary dog for any extended period of time. In the situation you can exit the room, get mauled, fight back and kill/incapacitate the dog. The grandparents comment applies only when there is an existing power balance in the engineers favor, if you don't put that power balance into place then their advice need not apply. Fuck your manager, if you do wind up fired let it roll off your back there was nothing you could do.
wccrawford 4y ago
My advice would be to use that feeling of "I might get fired" to get you started looking for a job. If you are fired, you'll have started the process early. If you aren't fired, you'll have started looking for a less-abusive (and probably more lucrative) job somewhere else. It's absolutely win-win for you.
- NAHWheatCracker 4y ago
  I don't think being fired could every be construed as a pure win, but it has accelerated my plans of looking elsewhere.
  - wccrawford 4y ago
    Yeah, getting fired is not a win. I meant that using that feeling to look for a job is win-win, no matter what happens at your current company.
spacemadness 4y ago
I’m not sure of your organizational structure, and if I had to guess it probably is designed to take power away from engineers, but if you’re able to talk to a manager about your near hostile PM it might be a good time to do so so thst someone has your back. Obvious caveat that this assumes your entire management chain isn’t complete garbage, which is a big assumption considering the story you provided.

VyseofArcadia 4y ago

I have (finally!) reached the point in my career where I am comfortable with responding negatively to unreasonable deadlines. None of this, "we'll do our best" crap. The deadline was unreasonable, I will let them know it was unreasonable, the work will take as long as it takes, and if they want a good estimate they need to start with the engineers. And it's their responsibility to deal with an angry customer. The real benefit of years of software dev experience is having enough fuck you money to not be afraid of telling your boss when they're being a shithead.

lamontcg 4y ago

> As a 43yo developer, my advice is to push back on this. Make it clear from the first moment that it's their problem, not yours. Yeah you can both be positive about the fact that you will get to work on the project and deliver it. You can also make sure that they understand that the dates will almost certainly slip up front. And try to dodge anything that sounds like a promise for a deadline. The reality is that they probably don't care anywhere near as much as the tone of this article is making it sound. If they can get the deal signed and get something delivered in twice the time as was agreed to, and which isn't fully baked and may be more of a beta release, they'll be happy. And if they're not well then they've set you up for failure, and the worst thing they can do is fire you. As long as you understand that is their issue, that should relieve you of your burdens. Usually though if you come off as a "straight shooter" who is self confident then they'll remember the delivery and not the slipped schedule and bugs. What you don't want to be doing is projecting as much anxiety over deadlines and estimates as the article here does. Even if it sounds ominous that there are contractual deadlines, in reality usually neither side of the deal wants to blow up the contract if the schedule slips by 3 months (or whatever) as long it eventually gets delivered.