6 ms·

It is hard to choose which of these is silliest, but my vote goes to the replacement of "he" with [name] or "they", until you know the person's preferred pronou

It is hard to choose which of these is silliest, but my vote goes to the replacement of "he" with [name] or "they", until you know the person's preferred pronouns. [1] The vast, vast majority of people who present as male wish to be referred to as "he". Many of them would be offended or confused if you used "they" as a term of reference. Many listeners would also be confused if you referred to a person who appears to be a typical male as a "they". If 99% of men go by "he", why should we use "they" as a term of reference by default? This is the tail wagging the dog, to say the least. 1: the list also says we are not to refer to "preferred pronouns" anymore. They are just "pronouns" now.

Macha 4y ago
This one seems fair to be honest, it's not just about those with non standard pronouns, but also women.
- lbwtaylor 4y ago
  20 years ago, using they in this way would have really tweaked my ears, but I find myself using it in this way and hearing it in this way more and more, and I think it won't be long before we've forgotten how odd it used to feel.
  - shever73 4y ago
    It still sounds odd to my ears, but that's because I usually hear "they" as a plural pronoun. For example, I was watching a TV show with two siblings, one used "they/them" pronouns. When the mother said "I'm really proud of them and everything they have accomplished", I didn't know if that was referring to one sibling or both. I know it will probably feel less odd as time goes on.
- pjio 4y ago
  there is the same recommendation for "she".
  - Macha 4y ago
    The "don't assume" logic would also apply for feminine sounding names, especially when the name is from a different culture to your own and/or ambiguous. He has the problem of the out of fashion gender neutral he along with guessing incorrectly from name or appearence, but the second issue also applies to she.
    - danw1979 4y ago
      Many of us will have been in a professional context (an audio conference call maybe) where someone guessed the person’s gender incorrectly from their name and the sum total of the offence was a shrug, and a quick apology was enough to set things right and move on. This is a non-issue for almost every person on the planet except for maybe the most easily offended.
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        It’s about power and dictating what good manners are now and a way to determine quickly if someone is of good breeding and worth continuing with much like how groups used other coded language and gestures in the past.
lbwtaylor 4y ago
Until 'they' got pulled into duty, English didn't have a non gendered pronoun, so if you were referring to someone where you didn't know the gender, you had a choice of defaulting to "he", randomly choosing "he" or " she", or using "he or she" or "the [descriptor like 'programmer']* They at first sounded weird being repurposed this way, but I think now it works better than any of the list above. Once you start using it for people who's gender you don't know, it's a pretty small step to use for someone's gender you don't want to assume.
- crackercrews 4y ago
  > it's a pretty small step to use for someone's gender you don't want to assume. Well that's the question, isn't it? How often do I have occasion to talk about someone whose gender I don't want to assume? In virtually every case, I am able to correctly ascertain the gender identity of a person I am going to talk about. The Stanford rules would have me pretend as if I just have no idea, and use "they" instead of "he" or "she". This is utter foolishness. It ignores the offense and confusion that will result from "they-ing" someone who goes by "he" or "she". And it ignores the fact that it is generally very easy to deduce someone's gender identity.
  - joxel 4y ago
    - ARandomerDude 4y ago
      - joxel 4y ago
        Imagine conflating using the pronoun 'they' as a gender neutral term has any link to communism or their atrocities. Ironically, the current rightwing US party has much more in common with Stalin/Putin than someone who doesnt want to assume someone's gender. But you can't expect an honest interpretation of history and current events from someone like you
fleddr 4y ago
Combine your two conclusions and sex (material reality) ceases to exist yet non-binary (an identity, not a sex) is to be respected as if it is a hard biological fact. After all, you don't decide to be non-binary, you just are. Yet this does not apply to sex. It's almost as if reality, facts, logic, consistency don't matter. Which is postmodernism. A power struggle.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  You are exactly right to say that this is postmodernism. Postmodernism says that all speech is not about truth, but about power. These people believe that. And they act the way they think. Their speech is all about power, not about truth. That's why their claims are so absurd and nonsensical - because it's not about the truth of the claims. It's about them asserting power over you. The only reasonable response, then, is to not accept their assertion of power. No. Just no. (Or "no" with as many profane modifiers as you feel is appropriate.) No, we don't agree. No, you're ridiculous. No, we aren't going to get in a debate with your ridiculousness. And most of all, no, we aren't going to follow your stupid rules. No. Get lost. Go away.
  - aliswe 4y ago
    That might get you in jail.
  - fleddr 4y ago
    Totally with you, but the problem is that the amount of places where "no" is not an option, is growing. Meaning, it's personally risky to go against this narrative in some contexts.
positus 4y ago
I think the real issue is that until recently 'they' was considered a plural pronoun, whereas the gender revolutionaries want it to now be considered a singular pronoun.
cwkoss 4y ago
Singular they for when you aren't sure of gender actually seems to simplify language quite a bit in my experience. There are lots of non-non-binary situations that its helpful and you can avoid those awkward "he or she" "his or her" type phrases. Plus, everyone knows how to use they already, never had anyone get confused by it. "Bob went to the store and they bought some beer" is completely parsable by everyone - nobody is getting confused unless they are trying to be.
- crackercrews 4y ago
  I know many people who would be honestly confused by your example.
puffoflogic 4y ago
Indeed, if someone refers to me as "they" then (1) I am being misgendered (2) probably intentionally (3) to score some political goal. That this is considered "okay" by certain people proves that they do not care about (1) or (2), only (3). "He" -> "they" further implies that there's something wrong about "he", a defect not present in "they". Otherwise the opposite replacement would also be acceptable. It is morally despicable.

Macha 4y ago

This one seems fair to be honest, it's not just about those with non standard pronouns, but also women.

lbwtaylor 4y ago
20 years ago, using they in this way would have really tweaked my ears, but I find myself using it in this way and hearing it in this way more and more, and I think it won't be long before we've forgotten how odd it used to feel.
- shever73 4y ago
  It still sounds odd to my ears, but that's because I usually hear "they" as a plural pronoun. For example, I was watching a TV show with two siblings, one used "they/them" pronouns. When the mother said "I'm really proud of them and everything they have accomplished", I didn't know if that was referring to one sibling or both. I know it will probably feel less odd as time goes on.
pjio 4y ago
there is the same recommendation for "she".
- Macha 4y ago
  The "don't assume" logic would also apply for feminine sounding names, especially when the name is from a different culture to your own and/or ambiguous. He has the problem of the out of fashion gender neutral he along with guessing incorrectly from name or appearence, but the second issue also applies to she.
  - danw1979 4y ago
    Many of us will have been in a professional context (an audio conference call maybe) where someone guessed the person’s gender incorrectly from their name and the sum total of the offence was a shrug, and a quick apology was enough to set things right and move on. This is a non-issue for almost every person on the planet except for maybe the most easily offended.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      It’s about power and dictating what good manners are now and a way to determine quickly if someone is of good breeding and worth continuing with much like how groups used other coded language and gestures in the past.

lbwtaylor 4y ago

Until 'they' got pulled into duty, English didn't have a non gendered pronoun, so if you were referring to someone where you didn't know the gender, you had a choice of defaulting to "he", randomly choosing "he" or " she", or using "he or she" or "the [descriptor like 'programmer']* They at first sounded weird being repurposed this way, but I think now it works better than any of the list above. Once you start using it for people who's gender you don't know, it's a pretty small step to use for someone's gender you don't want to assume.

crackercrews 4y ago
> it's a pretty small step to use for someone's gender you don't want to assume. Well that's the question, isn't it? How often do I have occasion to talk about someone whose gender I don't want to assume? In virtually every case, I am able to correctly ascertain the gender identity of a person I am going to talk about. The Stanford rules would have me pretend as if I just have no idea, and use "they" instead of "he" or "she". This is utter foolishness. It ignores the offense and confusion that will result from "they-ing" someone who goes by "he" or "she". And it ignores the fact that it is generally very easy to deduce someone's gender identity.
- joxel 4y ago
  - ARandomerDude 4y ago
    - joxel 4y ago
      Imagine conflating using the pronoun 'they' as a gender neutral term has any link to communism or their atrocities. Ironically, the current rightwing US party has much more in common with Stalin/Putin than someone who doesnt want to assume someone's gender. But you can't expect an honest interpretation of history and current events from someone like you

fleddr 4y ago

Combine your two conclusions and sex (material reality) ceases to exist yet non-binary (an identity, not a sex) is to be respected as if it is a hard biological fact. After all, you don't decide to be non-binary, you just are. Yet this does not apply to sex. It's almost as if reality, facts, logic, consistency don't matter. Which is postmodernism. A power struggle.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
You are exactly right to say that this is postmodernism. Postmodernism says that all speech is not about truth, but about power. These people believe that. And they act the way they think. Their speech is all about power, not about truth. That's why their claims are so absurd and nonsensical - because it's not about the truth of the claims. It's about them asserting power over you. The only reasonable response, then, is to not accept their assertion of power. No. Just no. (Or "no" with as many profane modifiers as you feel is appropriate.) No, we don't agree. No, you're ridiculous. No, we aren't going to get in a debate with your ridiculousness. And most of all, no, we aren't going to follow your stupid rules. No. Get lost. Go away.
- aliswe 4y ago
  That might get you in jail.
- fleddr 4y ago
  Totally with you, but the problem is that the amount of places where "no" is not an option, is growing. Meaning, it's personally risky to go against this narrative in some contexts.

positus 4y ago

I think the real issue is that until recently 'they' was considered a plural pronoun, whereas the gender revolutionaries want it to now be considered a singular pronoun.

cwkoss 4y ago

Singular they for when you aren't sure of gender actually seems to simplify language quite a bit in my experience. There are lots of non-non-binary situations that its helpful and you can avoid those awkward "he or she" "his or her" type phrases. Plus, everyone knows how to use they already, never had anyone get confused by it. "Bob went to the store and they bought some beer" is completely parsable by everyone - nobody is getting confused unless they are trying to be.

crackercrews 4y ago
I know many people who would be honestly confused by your example.

puffoflogic 4y ago

Indeed, if someone refers to me as "they" then (1) I am being misgendered (2) probably intentionally (3) to score some political goal. That this is considered "okay" by certain people proves that they do not care about (1) or (2), only (3). "He" -> "they" further implies that there's something wrong about "he", a defect not present in "they". Otherwise the opposite replacement would also be acceptable. It is morally despicable.