4 ms·

Oh but they will. Words like whitelist and blacklist have been banned by woke theater fiat at the bigco I work at, although I have seen no evidence they actual

Oh but they will. Words like whitelist and blacklist have been banned by woke theater fiat at the bigco I work at, although I have seen no evidence they actually have anything to do with racism. I suspect our banned words list has a lot of overlap with Stanford's. Rabblerousers like to rabblerouse, and nobody wants to be the voice of reason when the people who decide your paycheck make stupid political decisions.

Karrot_Kream 4y ago
I actually hate whitelist and blacklist for completely non-woke reasons. I find the terms confusing, and often misleading in operational contexts. I can't tell you the number of situations I've been in when one person's "IP whitelist" was a whitelist to block IPs and another's was to specifically let IPs in. I always insist at $WORK that we use descriptive terms (an IP blocklist, an account allowlist) simply to ensure there are no mistakes and that everyone agrees on what's going on.
- pksebben 4y ago
  while "Allowlist" and "Blocklist" are certainly better for being more self-documenting, whoever is in a position to create a whitelist and get it backwards obviously has a deeper problem re:RTFM
  - notahacker 4y ago
    > whoever is in a position to create a whitelist and get it backwards obviously has a deeper problem re:RTFM This is true, but also probably an indication that the term "whitelist" isn't as universally understood [by developers] as the "how dare you suggest using allowlist!" crowd suggest...
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  That makes sense, but it is not the reason why these terms were removed, and reasoning really does matter. Bad logic can lead to good conclusions, but that doesn't change the fact that it is bad. In particular, this idea that giving a negative connotation to the color black and darkness in general, and a positive connotation to the color white and lightness in general, implies some kid of racial bias is absurd, ahistorical, and frankly disturbing (since it creates controversy retroactively out of nothing).
- kosh2 4y ago
  Seems to me that this could happen just as well with allowlist and blocklist
- sharperguy 4y ago
  The difference is in the expected response when you use the "wrong" term. If I started talking about a blacklist someone could ask "Maybe we could use the term 'blocklist' in the documentation because its clearer to someone not as familiar with the technical terms?". They could also respond with "Why are you using such a loaded and out of date term? It is suspicious and sets a dangerous precedent, and doesn't belong in a place of work. You are getting a verbal warning."
- foofoo4u 4y ago
  I too personally find the terminology itself a bit confusing. I have some cognitive overhead on trying to remember what "whitelist" and "blacklist" actually means. But it's minor. Allow-list and block-list is intuitive. I _would_ be in inclined to update my terminology for the sake of clarity and practicality, but given the current context of the culture war we are currently in, I have consciously decided not to change my language. The language list that is on Stanford's site has infiltrated my employer (a major tech company) as well. The ELT and HR has made it clear they want everyone in the company to abide by it. Sure, making this small change for this specific example will result in slightly improved productivity, but it will come at the cost of emitting a social signal that the words "whitelist" and "blacklist" are bad, which they very well are not. This is a trade I not willing to make.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    This is an interesting emotional phenomenon; the more people claim I'm being "racist" by using "blacklist" or "master" the more I'm inclined to keep on using it, as a kind of "fuck you and your accusations". It's not even that I mind adjusting my language if people object to it; but there's a world of difference between "I really don't like it when you use the phrase [...]" and "you're being racist when you use the phrase [...]".
yodsanklai 4y ago
Recently got an oncall task, somebody was complaining about such a word occurring in an internal tool. Some people are quite zealous about this. Of course you don't want to be the one arguing about this...
kapildev 4y ago
In my childhood, one of the lighter-colored classmate justified the reason for supremacy of lighter-colored people providing black/white-based language as an evidence. These included the words black-list and white-list. Because of these rhetoric that is ingrained in children (who might later grow up without challenging them), I have always supported getting rid of these kinds of language. Context: I am from a place where both darker-colored people and lighter-colored people exist. Here in my country, lighter-colored people are considered better than darker-colored people. I am a darker-skinned person.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
profstasiak 4y ago
do people understand that light / darkness is the most primitive dichotomy there might be. I guess all organisms are working in day / night cycle, most of religions have / had god of light. America (sic) please get your act together. You are the biggest exporter of wokeism in the world

Karrot_Kream 4y ago

I actually hate whitelist and blacklist for completely non-woke reasons. I find the terms confusing, and often misleading in operational contexts. I can't tell you the number of situations I've been in when one person's "IP whitelist" was a whitelist to block IPs and another's was to specifically let IPs in. I always insist at $WORK that we use descriptive terms (an IP blocklist, an account allowlist) simply to ensure there are no mistakes and that everyone agrees on what's going on.

pksebben 4y ago
while "Allowlist" and "Blocklist" are certainly better for being more self-documenting, whoever is in a position to create a whitelist and get it backwards obviously has a deeper problem re:RTFM
- notahacker 4y ago
  > whoever is in a position to create a whitelist and get it backwards obviously has a deeper problem re:RTFM This is true, but also probably an indication that the term "whitelist" isn't as universally understood [by developers] as the "how dare you suggest using allowlist!" crowd suggest...
tsimionescu 4y ago
That makes sense, but it is not the reason why these terms were removed, and reasoning really does matter. Bad logic can lead to good conclusions, but that doesn't change the fact that it is bad. In particular, this idea that giving a negative connotation to the color black and darkness in general, and a positive connotation to the color white and lightness in general, implies some kid of racial bias is absurd, ahistorical, and frankly disturbing (since it creates controversy retroactively out of nothing).
kosh2 4y ago
Seems to me that this could happen just as well with allowlist and blocklist
sharperguy 4y ago
The difference is in the expected response when you use the "wrong" term. If I started talking about a blacklist someone could ask "Maybe we could use the term 'blocklist' in the documentation because its clearer to someone not as familiar with the technical terms?". They could also respond with "Why are you using such a loaded and out of date term? It is suspicious and sets a dangerous precedent, and doesn't belong in a place of work. You are getting a verbal warning."
foofoo4u 4y ago
I too personally find the terminology itself a bit confusing. I have some cognitive overhead on trying to remember what "whitelist" and "blacklist" actually means. But it's minor. Allow-list and block-list is intuitive. I _would_ be in inclined to update my terminology for the sake of clarity and practicality, but given the current context of the culture war we are currently in, I have consciously decided not to change my language. The language list that is on Stanford's site has infiltrated my employer (a major tech company) as well. The ELT and HR has made it clear they want everyone in the company to abide by it. Sure, making this small change for this specific example will result in slightly improved productivity, but it will come at the cost of emitting a social signal that the words "whitelist" and "blacklist" are bad, which they very well are not. This is a trade I not willing to make.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  This is an interesting emotional phenomenon; the more people claim I'm being "racist" by using "blacklist" or "master" the more I'm inclined to keep on using it, as a kind of "fuck you and your accusations". It's not even that I mind adjusting my language if people object to it; but there's a world of difference between "I really don't like it when you use the phrase [...]" and "you're being racist when you use the phrase [...]".

yodsanklai 4y ago

Recently got an oncall task, somebody was complaining about such a word occurring in an internal tool. Some people are quite zealous about this. Of course you don't want to be the one arguing about this...

kapildev 4y ago

In my childhood, one of the lighter-colored classmate justified the reason for supremacy of lighter-colored people providing black/white-based language as an evidence. These included the words black-list and white-list. Because of these rhetoric that is ingrained in children (who might later grow up without challenging them), I have always supported getting rid of these kinds of language. Context: I am from a place where both darker-colored people and lighter-colored people exist. Here in my country, lighter-colored people are considered better than darker-colored people. I am a darker-skinned person.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

profstasiak 4y ago

do people understand that light / darkness is the most primitive dichotomy there might be. I guess all organisms are working in day / night cycle, most of religions have / had god of light. America (sic) please get your act together. You are the biggest exporter of wokeism in the world