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Speaking of Indigenous Americans... the list has Brave (noun), with the reasoning: "This term perpetuates the stereotype of the "noble courageous savage," equat

Speaking of Indigenous Americans... the list has Brave (noun), with the reasoning: "This term perpetuates the stereotype of the "noble courageous savage," equating the Indigenous male as being less than a man." I actually think Brave ("the Braves") would have been a good name to refer to Native Americans. I don't feel like "noble, courageous" is much of a slur. It's pretty honorable in fact. I don't see how calling someone brave equates them with less than a man.

thomasahle 4y ago
I've never heard brave used as a noun. Can you give me an example? I guess I can see it used in an infantalising way.
- deleted 4y ago
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- WalterBright 4y ago
  The dictionary sez: "a North American Indian warrior"
- ancapsfascists 4y ago
  It's often used in a wild west sorta way, "we were surrounded by braves". It's super outdated, for sure, as are most words that mean "my enemy's warriors".
- devmunchies 4y ago
  The Atlanta Braves is a Major League Baseball team. Used like you would use “warrior”.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- robarr 4y ago
  It was very common on old ‘cowboys and Indians’ movies’, at least on the old Spanish language translated reruns I watched as a kid: Some scout returned to some army fort and reported the presence of ‘500 braves’ coming from the north o hidden beyond some mountain or something like that.
- rsj_hn 4y ago
  example: "We came across a camp with twenty braves." It's an unusual usage. Fun Fact: "brave" when referring to male warriors is assumed to come from Spanish bravo which means "courageous, untamed, savage". The association of courage and savagery comes from Spanish Renaissance culture and both meanings are meant simultaneously - that is, savages - those prone to violence -- were associated with courage and vice versa. Because English didn't have such an association, the word was repurposed to have two meanings and the second meaning fell into disuse after the 19th Century. Now in the 21st century, unless you are reading a book written in the 1800s, when you hear "brave" you can pretty much assume it's an adjective with the primary usage.
  - thomasahle 4y ago
    > that is, savages - those prone to violence -- were associated with courage and vice versa. Because English didn't have such an association The association of "savages" with honor and courage seems pretty universal. Like the vikings are often depicted with a strong sense of honor. Or the celtics by the romans, or the huns and mongols. Basically any tribal culture I can think of. While those living in cities / bigger civilizations are associated with corruption, deceit etc. I suppose it's better to accept that both honor and deceit exist in all human beings, irrespective of group.
    - rsj_hn 4y ago
      Yes, that's a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if this goes back to the original Latin
- bregma 4y ago
  When I was growing up (many years ago now) we were taught that the indigenous people of North America were not men and women, but braves and squaws. Like stallions and mares, bucks and does, roosters and hens.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  > A little Indian brave who before he was ten > Played war games in the woods with his Indian friends > And he built a dream that when he grew up > He would be a fearless warrior, Indian Chief > Many moons passed, and more the dream grew strong > Until tomorrow he would sing his first war song > And fight his first battle > But something went wrong > Surprise attack killed him in his sleep that night > And so castles made of sand > Melts into the sea eventually From Jimi Hendrix's Castles Made of Sand, one of his better and more underrated tunes.
SanjayMehta 4y ago
Brave Browser? Banned?
vintermann 4y ago
Well, I've wondered about that. Isn't it odd that black Americans have a comparatively low suicide rate, whereas native Americans have a sky-high one? I have wondered if maybe at least some suicides are about a disconnect between what you're actually able to do, and what people expect of you. It's obviously bad if people hate you and expect no good to come of you. But there's an additional horror when you're given an impossible task, and people expect you to do it - indeed, when they're actually genuinely disappointed in you when you can't. It's like in Kafka's "The transformation": the real horror isn't that Samsa wakes up and finds that he's turned into a giant cockroach. It's his family's reaction: how could you do this to us? How could you put us in this situation? I'm thinking maybe that stereotypical image of the noble, brave Indian with his great wisdom, connection to nature, unbreakable spirit - something you'd want to live up to, who wouldn't? - is especially cruel in the face of the material realities of first nation communities.
prepend 4y ago
This stuck out to me as well. Also because you’re not supposed to use the word in any form so saying”devmunchies is brave” is bad. I can understand a complaint like the Atlanta Braves offending someone because it’s a caricature, but still don’t think it should be changed.

thomasahle 4y ago

I've never heard brave used as a noun. Can you give me an example? I guess I can see it used in an infantalising way.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
WalterBright 4y ago
The dictionary sez: "a North American Indian warrior"
ancapsfascists 4y ago
It's often used in a wild west sorta way, "we were surrounded by braves". It's super outdated, for sure, as are most words that mean "my enemy's warriors".
devmunchies 4y ago
The Atlanta Braves is a Major League Baseball team. Used like you would use “warrior”.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
robarr 4y ago
It was very common on old ‘cowboys and Indians’ movies’, at least on the old Spanish language translated reruns I watched as a kid: Some scout returned to some army fort and reported the presence of ‘500 braves’ coming from the north o hidden beyond some mountain or something like that.
rsj_hn 4y ago
example: "We came across a camp with twenty braves." It's an unusual usage. Fun Fact: "brave" when referring to male warriors is assumed to come from Spanish bravo which means "courageous, untamed, savage". The association of courage and savagery comes from Spanish Renaissance culture and both meanings are meant simultaneously - that is, savages - those prone to violence -- were associated with courage and vice versa. Because English didn't have such an association, the word was repurposed to have two meanings and the second meaning fell into disuse after the 19th Century. Now in the 21st century, unless you are reading a book written in the 1800s, when you hear "brave" you can pretty much assume it's an adjective with the primary usage.
- thomasahle 4y ago
  > that is, savages - those prone to violence -- were associated with courage and vice versa. Because English didn't have such an association The association of "savages" with honor and courage seems pretty universal. Like the vikings are often depicted with a strong sense of honor. Or the celtics by the romans, or the huns and mongols. Basically any tribal culture I can think of. While those living in cities / bigger civilizations are associated with corruption, deceit etc. I suppose it's better to accept that both honor and deceit exist in all human beings, irrespective of group.
  - rsj_hn 4y ago
    Yes, that's a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if this goes back to the original Latin
bregma 4y ago
When I was growing up (many years ago now) we were taught that the indigenous people of North America were not men and women, but braves and squaws. Like stallions and mares, bucks and does, roosters and hens.
agentwiggles 4y ago
> A little Indian brave who before he was ten > Played war games in the woods with his Indian friends > And he built a dream that when he grew up > He would be a fearless warrior, Indian Chief > Many moons passed, and more the dream grew strong > Until tomorrow he would sing his first war song > And fight his first battle > But something went wrong > Surprise attack killed him in his sleep that night > And so castles made of sand > Melts into the sea eventually From Jimi Hendrix's Castles Made of Sand, one of his better and more underrated tunes.

SanjayMehta 4y ago

Brave Browser? Banned?

vintermann 4y ago

Well, I've wondered about that. Isn't it odd that black Americans have a comparatively low suicide rate, whereas native Americans have a sky-high one? I have wondered if maybe at least some suicides are about a disconnect between what you're actually able to do, and what people expect of you. It's obviously bad if people hate you and expect no good to come of you. But there's an additional horror when you're given an impossible task, and people expect you to do it - indeed, when they're actually genuinely disappointed in you when you can't. It's like in Kafka's "The transformation": the real horror isn't that Samsa wakes up and finds that he's turned into a giant cockroach. It's his family's reaction: how could you do this to us? How could you put us in this situation? I'm thinking maybe that stereotypical image of the noble, brave Indian with his great wisdom, connection to nature, unbreakable spirit - something you'd want to live up to, who wouldn't? - is especially cruel in the face of the material realities of first nation communities.

prepend 4y ago

This stuck out to me as well. Also because you’re not supposed to use the word in any form so saying”devmunchies is brave” is bad. I can understand a complaint like the Atlanta Braves offending someone because it’s a caricature, but still don’t think it should be changed.