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The right thing to do, and I also don't really think reparations should be coupled to this as that opens another can of worms and probably isn't the solution ne

The right thing to do, and I also don't really think reparations should be coupled to this as that opens another can of worms and probably isn't the solution needed.

eesmith 4y ago
Why aren't financial reparations part of the solution needed? The linked-to article at https://apnews.com/article/caribbean-netherlands-slavery-mark-rutte-suriname-3d4f0226706c3109080a687ae67858c4 https://apnews.com/article/caribbean-netherlands-slavery-mar... says things like: > “Slavery was a terrible period, and degrading acts were committed,” he said as he called for financial reparations to be spent on education, health and other public benefits. “We remained poor.” > Irma Hoever, a 73-year-old retired civil servant who lives in the capital, Paramaribo, said that the Dutch “do not understand what they have done to us.” > “They still enjoy what their ancestors did to this day. We still suffer. Reparations are needed,” she said. and: > Activists in the Dutch Caribbean territory of St. Maarten have rejected the anticipated apology and demanded reparations, too. Why do you know better than they do?
- pangolinja 4y ago
  they are right to. wait until the Indonesian Muslims and Cape Coloured community of South Africa get to tell their stories...
stjohnswarts 4y ago
I agree. If reparations are "paid" does it ever end? Is there ever a maximum to be paid out? I'm saying this as someone who is of mixed European, African, and Native American ancestry, yes my ancestors were enslaved on two branches of my family history, I don't want reparations, I just want unequivocal equality and a chance, not special treatment. All we can do is demonize slavery and entrench democracy and equality, anything else is just going to serve further to split the 99% up and distract them from the real issue which is being taken advantage of by the 1%
- eesmith 4y ago
  We've seen many cases where reparations end, so ... yes, they can end, and yes there can be a maximum payment. (Eg, $20,000 each for Japanese Americans interned during WWII.) But "reparations" doesn't mean only financial reparations, and don't let people focus on just that! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_(transitional_justice) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_(transitional_just... describes "five formal categories of reparations: restitution, compensation, rehabilitation, satisfaction, and guarantees of non-repetition". You want unequivocal equality, which is satisfaction and a guarantees of non-repetition - yes, you want reparations. Which is entirely reasonable and just. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery include examples of non-monetary reparations, this time for Africa as a whole, like "to use all lawful means to secure the return of African artefacts from whichever place they are currently held" and "an accurate portrayal of African history and thus restore dignity and self-respect to African people". I can't help but think the idea of focusing on financial reparations is to keep people from thinking about all the other reparations that can be done. I can't help but think the idea of focusing on reparations for slavery is to keep people from thinking about reparations for Jim Crow in the US (there are people still alive who suffered under Jim Crow) or reparations for imperialism (the Dutch decolonialized during 1942–1975; again, there are people still alive from that period). And the point made is true - the Dutch profited from colonization, at the expense of their colonizes, and continue to profit from the inherited wealth of colonization. Why do ex-colonial powers get to hoard their stolen wealth? Also, it mentions that in "Suriname, activists and officials say they have not been asked for input about the apology" ... why didn't the Dutch do that? Surely they must know it makes them seem like they still don't think of their ex-colonies as equals.
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    Should I just say "I don't want special treatment" then? I'll come out and say that. If a private company or individual wants to give out cultural/racially based scholarships/financial aid then more power to them. Why does everyone assume that others don't know that some European countries had evil colonial period histories. It's too late to make up for those ills. Move on and quit living in the past. Let's start treating people "right" now, not forever be digging up the past. Use it for context and lessons learned and not keep this race war and white guilt (or cultural guilt?) alive forever. It only serves to keep up 99% split up and infighting. Aka we can't fix the world's problems before we work on the ones at home. Why drag our children down with the ills done by our ancestors?
pangolinja 4y ago
reparations should never end, in the same way that Western debt burdens on American aid have enslaved African economies independence from colonialism. mineral laundering, or the expropriation of African minerals and metals to other countries to disguise their origin, is estimated to account a considerable portion of the global GDP. if accounted for Africa would be a net debitor of the football economy; that is to say Africa would have the value role that the US/West currently holds. poverty, corruption and African war are all useful ways to disrupt sovereignty, undermine local growth, and hide the ill gotten gains from scrutiny. Western firms and govts still consistently do this across Africa to maintain the modern global economy. our technology-driven consumerist world wouldnt exist without this laundering. (copper, gold, cobalt, coltan, rare earths etc).

The right thing to do, and I also don't really think reparations should be coupled to this as that opens another can of worms and probably isn't the solution needed.

eesmith 4y ago

Why aren't financial reparations part of the solution needed? The linked-to article at https://apnews.com/article/caribbean-netherlands-slavery-mark-rutte-suriname-3d4f0226706c3109080a687ae67858c4 https://apnews.com/article/caribbean-netherlands-slavery-mar... says things like: > “Slavery was a terrible period, and degrading acts were committed,” he said as he called for financial reparations to be spent on education, health and other public benefits. “We remained poor.” > Irma Hoever, a 73-year-old retired civil servant who lives in the capital, Paramaribo, said that the Dutch “do not understand what they have done to us.” > “They still enjoy what their ancestors did to this day. We still suffer. Reparations are needed,” she said. and: > Activists in the Dutch Caribbean territory of St. Maarten have rejected the anticipated apology and demanded reparations, too. Why do you know better than they do?

pangolinja 4y ago
they are right to. wait until the Indonesian Muslims and Cape Coloured community of South Africa get to tell their stories...

stjohnswarts 4y ago

I agree. If reparations are "paid" does it ever end? Is there ever a maximum to be paid out? I'm saying this as someone who is of mixed European, African, and Native American ancestry, yes my ancestors were enslaved on two branches of my family history, I don't want reparations, I just want unequivocal equality and a chance, not special treatment. All we can do is demonize slavery and entrench democracy and equality, anything else is just going to serve further to split the 99% up and distract them from the real issue which is being taken advantage of by the 1%

eesmith 4y ago
We've seen many cases where reparations end, so ... yes, they can end, and yes there can be a maximum payment. (Eg, $20,000 each for Japanese Americans interned during WWII.) But "reparations" doesn't mean only financial reparations, and don't let people focus on just that! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_(transitional_justice) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_(transitional_just... describes "five formal categories of reparations: restitution, compensation, rehabilitation, satisfaction, and guarantees of non-repetition". You want unequivocal equality, which is satisfaction and a guarantees of non-repetition - yes, you want reparations. Which is entirely reasonable and just. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery include examples of non-monetary reparations, this time for Africa as a whole, like "to use all lawful means to secure the return of African artefacts from whichever place they are currently held" and "an accurate portrayal of African history and thus restore dignity and self-respect to African people". I can't help but think the idea of focusing on financial reparations is to keep people from thinking about all the other reparations that can be done. I can't help but think the idea of focusing on reparations for slavery is to keep people from thinking about reparations for Jim Crow in the US (there are people still alive who suffered under Jim Crow) or reparations for imperialism (the Dutch decolonialized during 1942–1975; again, there are people still alive from that period). And the point made is true - the Dutch profited from colonization, at the expense of their colonizes, and continue to profit from the inherited wealth of colonization. Why do ex-colonial powers get to hoard their stolen wealth? Also, it mentions that in "Suriname, activists and officials say they have not been asked for input about the apology" ... why didn't the Dutch do that? Surely they must know it makes them seem like they still don't think of their ex-colonies as equals.
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  Should I just say "I don't want special treatment" then? I'll come out and say that. If a private company or individual wants to give out cultural/racially based scholarships/financial aid then more power to them. Why does everyone assume that others don't know that some European countries had evil colonial period histories. It's too late to make up for those ills. Move on and quit living in the past. Let's start treating people "right" now, not forever be digging up the past. Use it for context and lessons learned and not keep this race war and white guilt (or cultural guilt?) alive forever. It only serves to keep up 99% split up and infighting. Aka we can't fix the world's problems before we work on the ones at home. Why drag our children down with the ills done by our ancestors?

pangolinja 4y ago

reparations should never end, in the same way that Western debt burdens on American aid have enslaved African economies independence from colonialism. mineral laundering, or the expropriation of African minerals and metals to other countries to disguise their origin, is estimated to account a considerable portion of the global GDP. if accounted for Africa would be a net debitor of the football economy; that is to say Africa would have the value role that the US/West currently holds. poverty, corruption and African war are all useful ways to disrupt sovereignty, undermine local growth, and hide the ill gotten gains from scrutiny. Western firms and govts still consistently do this across Africa to maintain the modern global economy. our technology-driven consumerist world wouldnt exist without this laundering. (copper, gold, cobalt, coltan, rare earths etc).