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This is so terrible. It makes me think about comments I heard from John Gretton "Jocko" Willink, an ex-Navy Seal podcaster on YouTube. During the height of the

by todd8 4y ago

This is so terrible. It makes me think about comments I heard from John Gretton "Jocko" Willink, an ex-Navy Seal podcaster on YouTube. During the height of the defund the police movement he suggested that doing so would make things worse. As I recall, he said it would be better to increase the funding for police departments so that there could be more police. Increasing the police force by one third would allow patrol officers to be off the streets for one week out of every month. During that week they could decompress from the stress of being on patrol and could spend the time in training classes that could alternate through various subject including de-escalation, Spanish lessons, stress training, etc. (These are my recollections of what he said, take them with a grain of salt.) I'm sure that a Navy Seal has very different training requirements than a police officer, so Mr. Willink's thoughts may not be relevant, but at least to me they make sense. I would be willing to pay more for police if it meant that they would be better trained, that the job paid well enough that marginal officers wouldn't be hired, and that there was enough time off from stressful work to keep the police officers lives more balanced. I don't know if this would have saved Raj Moonesinghe's life, but what we are doing now is not working.

influx 4y ago
Agreed, police needs more officers, better training, and higher standards. Another factor is having enough officers to pair up at all times, this helps deescalate conflict up front, and has officers less likely to attempt lethal force than being by themselves.
- landemva 4y ago
  Is there statistical proof that paired up promotes deescalation? Seems more like an arm-chair hunch.
- JoeyBananas 4y ago
  I've heard from a retired police officer that pairing officers has the opposite effect.
acchow 4y ago
A unioned police officer would happily use that week off decompression to do nothing at all.
- jfengel 4y ago
  OK. If the result of that decompression is fewer people killed because the police officers made poor decisions due to stress, I'm all for paying for more police officers. I'd also like to do a lot of things to reduce the work loads of existing police officers, like not sending people with guns to situations that won't involve guns. Unfortunately, every situation in America potentially involves guns, so that may be an intractable problem. But it would be nice to start with "This situation calls for a counselor rather than a cop", and let the cops handle more cop-oriented situations.
- sarlalian 4y ago
  I don't think they meant a week off of work. They meant a week off of the streets to decompress. That time should obviously be filled with activity that helps both from a training standpoint and a decompression standpoint.
foxyv 4y ago
The problem with this is, even the best funded police departments still suck for various reasons. A great example is the best funded city police departments in the USA: Baltimore PD and Wilmington PD https://thedailyrecord.com/2022/08/11/bpd-faces-two-new-lawsuits-tied-to-discredited-police-officers/ https://thedailyrecord.com/2022/08/11/bpd-faces-two-new-laws... https://whyy.org/articles/wilmington-police-samuel-waters-indictment-assault-cover-up/ https://whyy.org/articles/wilmington-police-samuel-waters-in... I think Willink definitely has a point though about undertrained and overworked officers. We should definitely have much stricter standards for officers and annual re-certification. Too many officers out there barely know their butt from the fourth amendment. Also, there should be work logging requirements similar to truckers. Some officers work insane hours and are probably barely able to drive, much less deal with a DV call. Police unions should be on top of that, but they seem to be more focused on political junk.
- slowhand09 4y ago
  Sometimes "Best-funded" means pays lots of overtime. Many departments determine retirement benefits based on hours worked in your final year(s). Was not uncommon for officers to work 80hr weeks, doubling the amount they get in retirement. There are many problems to fix.
  - foxyv 4y ago
    > There are many problems to fix. You are not kidding here. San Bernardino California is going bankrupt paying the pensions of LAPD officers who moved there specifically to retire. Not to mention all the tiny PDs that are stealing from innocent people using asset forfeiture. The racial profiling by small town PDs that will essentially run non-whites out of town on a rail. Everyone has a story, like my brother who got pulled over for a "Suspicious right turn" when he drove through the wrong town with my black friend. Or my other brother who got a ticket for riding his motorcycle on the sidewalk without a helmet while running a left turn light... on his bicycle. He got more community service (110 hours) from the corrupt state commissioner than another guy who beat up an old lady. Police quality is a huge issue in the US. Justice is a huge issue in the US. We have a LOT of work to do.
- 4y ago
vertis 4y ago
Police forces around the global have issues with institutional racisim[0][1][2]. This global systemic behaviour does nothing to convince me there should be more police. > A study of police-involved deaths between 2012 and 2018 found that on average, police kill 2.8 men every day in the U.S. The risk of death at the hands of an officer was found to be between 3.2 and 3.5 times higher for black men compared to white men[3]. If you want to talk about something that's effective. Bodycams are shown to increase accountability and result in more disciplinary actions against police[4]. Another effective technique is not sending police at all[5], but rather sending mental health workers and paramedics (to some calls). [0]: https://theconversation.com/stop-and-search-disproportionately-affects-black-communities-yet-police-powers-are-being-extended-165477 https://theconversation.com/stop-and-search-disproportionate... [1]: https://yellowheadinstitute.org/2020/07/15/police-brutality-in-canada-a-symptom-of-structural-racism-and-colonial-violence/ https://yellowheadinstitute.org/2020/07/15/police-brutality-... [2]: https://theconversation.com/new-jersey-state-polices-first-100-years-characterized-by-racial-prejudice-156451 https://theconversation.com/new-jersey-state-polices-first-1... [3]: https://theconversation.com/militarization-has-fostered-a-policing-culture-that-sets-up-protesters-as-the-enemy-139727 https://theconversation.com/militarization-has-fostered-a-po... [4]: https://theconversation.com/the-concrete-effects-of-body-cameras-on-police-accountability-171460 https://theconversation.com/the-concrete-effects-of-body-cam... [5]: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/mental-health-replace-police/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/mental-health-replace...
- landemva 4y ago
  Bodycams are effective, though the USSC doctrine of qualified immunity needs to be revisited.
x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago
The whole "more" thing just seems like concern trolling. We don't have this problem because they don't have the resources, we have this problem because as an institution, the country has demanded that they have these sorts of problems. A better way to examine how the machinery views police misconduct is what does the machine do when it occurs? They don't willingly make changes, instead they suppress video, suppress disciplinary and complaint records of officers, and then continue to press charges against the citizen subject of the complaint. That's not indicative of a group that would do better if simply given more resources.

by todd8 4y ago

influx 4y ago

Agreed, police needs more officers, better training, and higher standards. Another factor is having enough officers to pair up at all times, this helps deescalate conflict up front, and has officers less likely to attempt lethal force than being by themselves.

landemva 4y ago
Is there statistical proof that paired up promotes deescalation? Seems more like an arm-chair hunch.
JoeyBananas 4y ago
I've heard from a retired police officer that pairing officers has the opposite effect.

acchow 4y ago

A unioned police officer would happily use that week off decompression to do nothing at all.

jfengel 4y ago
OK. If the result of that decompression is fewer people killed because the police officers made poor decisions due to stress, I'm all for paying for more police officers. I'd also like to do a lot of things to reduce the work loads of existing police officers, like not sending people with guns to situations that won't involve guns. Unfortunately, every situation in America potentially involves guns, so that may be an intractable problem. But it would be nice to start with "This situation calls for a counselor rather than a cop", and let the cops handle more cop-oriented situations.
sarlalian 4y ago
I don't think they meant a week off of work. They meant a week off of the streets to decompress. That time should obviously be filled with activity that helps both from a training standpoint and a decompression standpoint.

foxyv 4y ago

The problem with this is, even the best funded police departments still suck for various reasons. A great example is the best funded city police departments in the USA: Baltimore PD and Wilmington PD https://thedailyrecord.com/2022/08/11/bpd-faces-two-new-lawsuits-tied-to-discredited-police-officers/ https://thedailyrecord.com/2022/08/11/bpd-faces-two-new-laws... https://whyy.org/articles/wilmington-police-samuel-waters-indictment-assault-cover-up/ https://whyy.org/articles/wilmington-police-samuel-waters-in... I think Willink definitely has a point though about undertrained and overworked officers. We should definitely have much stricter standards for officers and annual re-certification. Too many officers out there barely know their butt from the fourth amendment. Also, there should be work logging requirements similar to truckers. Some officers work insane hours and are probably barely able to drive, much less deal with a DV call. Police unions should be on top of that, but they seem to be more focused on political junk.

slowhand09 4y ago
Sometimes "Best-funded" means pays lots of overtime. Many departments determine retirement benefits based on hours worked in your final year(s). Was not uncommon for officers to work 80hr weeks, doubling the amount they get in retirement. There are many problems to fix.
- foxyv 4y ago
  > There are many problems to fix. You are not kidding here. San Bernardino California is going bankrupt paying the pensions of LAPD officers who moved there specifically to retire. Not to mention all the tiny PDs that are stealing from innocent people using asset forfeiture. The racial profiling by small town PDs that will essentially run non-whites out of town on a rail. Everyone has a story, like my brother who got pulled over for a "Suspicious right turn" when he drove through the wrong town with my black friend. Or my other brother who got a ticket for riding his motorcycle on the sidewalk without a helmet while running a left turn light... on his bicycle. He got more community service (110 hours) from the corrupt state commissioner than another guy who beat up an old lady. Police quality is a huge issue in the US. Justice is a huge issue in the US. We have a LOT of work to do.
4y ago

vertis 4y ago

Police forces around the global have issues with institutional racisim[0][1][2]. This global systemic behaviour does nothing to convince me there should be more police. > A study of police-involved deaths between 2012 and 2018 found that on average, police kill 2.8 men every day in the U.S. The risk of death at the hands of an officer was found to be between 3.2 and 3.5 times higher for black men compared to white men[3]. If you want to talk about something that's effective. Bodycams are shown to increase accountability and result in more disciplinary actions against police[4]. Another effective technique is not sending police at all[5], but rather sending mental health workers and paramedics (to some calls). [0]: https://theconversation.com/stop-and-search-disproportionately-affects-black-communities-yet-police-powers-are-being-extended-165477 https://theconversation.com/stop-and-search-disproportionate... [1]: https://yellowheadinstitute.org/2020/07/15/police-brutality-in-canada-a-symptom-of-structural-racism-and-colonial-violence/ https://yellowheadinstitute.org/2020/07/15/police-brutality-... [2]: https://theconversation.com/new-jersey-state-polices-first-100-years-characterized-by-racial-prejudice-156451 https://theconversation.com/new-jersey-state-polices-first-1... [3]: https://theconversation.com/militarization-has-fostered-a-policing-culture-that-sets-up-protesters-as-the-enemy-139727 https://theconversation.com/militarization-has-fostered-a-po... [4]: https://theconversation.com/the-concrete-effects-of-body-cameras-on-police-accountability-171460 https://theconversation.com/the-concrete-effects-of-body-cam... [5]: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/mental-health-replace-police/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/mental-health-replace...

landemva 4y ago
Bodycams are effective, though the USSC doctrine of qualified immunity needs to be revisited.

x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago

The whole "more" thing just seems like concern trolling. We don't have this problem because they don't have the resources, we have this problem because as an institution, the country has demanded that they have these sorts of problems. A better way to examine how the machinery views police misconduct is what does the machine do when it occurs? They don't willingly make changes, instead they suppress video, suppress disciplinary and complaint records of officers, and then continue to press charges against the citizen subject of the complaint. That's not indicative of a group that would do better if simply given more resources.