5 ms·

This is a nice thought, but reality is always different. A really popular person might have many millions of followers on tens or hundreds of thousands of node

This is a nice thought, but reality is always different. A really popular person might have many millions of followers on tens or hundreds of thousands of nodes. That person then boosts a post from another server and they have effectively DDOSed that server. All the other nodes will start querying that server about that post or image. You can say that a single user should not have that many followers, however the root of the issue is that mastodon will have some scaling issues.

phoe-krk 4y ago
Yes, and we're already seeing it e.g. with https://mas.to https://mas.to getting hugged to death because of pg joining it. If anything, it can be treated as a technological problem, solvable e.g. by (theorizing now) splitting a single instance over a series of machines, or a social problem, by (not theorizing anymore) a famous enough person hosting their own instance as already suggested several times on the Fediverse. The Fediverse will eventually establish a concrete way for handling that sort of matters.
- nerdawson 4y ago
  > The Fediverse will eventually establish a concrete way for handling that sort of matters. They've had years to get this right. This is their moment to shine and they're blowing it.
- enumjorge 4y ago
  > a famous enough person hosting their own instance So if the likes Obama or Stephen King want to move over to Mastodon their barrier of entry would be to complete this laundry list [1] or find a service that does this for them? Given that they own the instance, they would also need to provide moderation for it. I don't disagree that there are solutions to the scale problem. What I have trouble seeing are solutions that are viable. That's the thing about a centralized service--you have a company that handles all of this so your users don't have to. [1] https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/run-your-own/#so-you-want-to-run-your-own-mastodon-server https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/run-your-own/#so-you-want...
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    > or find a service that does this for them? Assuming that Mastodon growth continues, such services will probably emerge (there are already a couple of Mastodon hosting services, but there's probably a market for a "so you're a celebrity who wants a single-user Mastodon instance" service which has yet to be filled). > Given that they own the instance, they would also need to provide moderation for it. If it was a single-user instance, that would be fairly trivial :)
  - rcarr 4y ago
    I do wonder if the next phase of social media is to encourage people to use a single user instance similar to mastodon.host. It would probably have to offer more than just twitter though e.g peertube, pixelfed etc. Start with a free tier, have it all running on auto scale and then notify people when they start getting popular that they need to scale up and start paying for their instance if they want to grow their audience. Don’t know if it would work or not but it’s an idea.
    - georgyo 4y ago
      Most likely not, mostly due to lack of discovery. When you start off an an empty instance, the only thing you see is yourself. There are no trends, there are no posts, and everywhere you click is just you. You have to start following people for it start populating, but that requires knowing strings to follow. And then you can you see is stuff in your bubble (maybe a feature?). But it really missing the dopamine response, as after you read the stuff people you follow posted or boosted; there is nothing. A dedicated person can push through this initial period. But for mass appeal, people will quickly bounce if they feel like no one else is there.
zimpenfish 4y ago
> That person then boosts a post from another server and they have effectively DDOSed that server. All the other nodes will start querying that server about that post or image. But that's fixable in several ways - local media cache for an instance, the boost including the preview rather than each client fetching it for themselves, etc. The problem* with ActivityPub is that it's been designed and developed in a bit of user vacuum and it definitely has issues but they can all be worked on. Much like Twitter going from Rails to Scala, etc., to fix their issues.
- georgyo 4y ago
  There is already a local media cache. My comment doesn't suggest that each follower requests stuff from the home server, but each instance. The instances cache pretty aggressively, but you still have a thundering herd when a popular person boosts a message.
  - zimpenfish 4y ago
    > There is already a local media cache. I suppose I should have been clearer - apologies. I was talking about a cache for previews (which would presumably be folded into the local media cache since it's already there.) > you still have a thundering herd when a popular person boosts a message Not if the boost includes the preview - that -should- cut it down significantly (and indeed it has been proposed but is still being bikeshedded by the Mastodon devs because "what if someone sends a fake preview?!?!?!?!")
madrox 4y ago
Yes, this is a real thing that will happen. However, this is no different than a popular website like, say, HN, linking to someone's hack project and giving it the hug of death. This stuff happens, and if any operational element boils down to someone's hobby then you'll see some issues. That doesn't mean Mastodon is inherently flawed any more than web pages being inherently flawed. What will happen is the same thing that happened to web servers and email servers. Businesses will pop up to run your instance for you.

phoe-krk 4y ago

Yes, and we're already seeing it e.g. with https://mas.to https://mas.to getting hugged to death because of pg joining it. If anything, it can be treated as a technological problem, solvable e.g. by (theorizing now) splitting a single instance over a series of machines, or a social problem, by (not theorizing anymore) a famous enough person hosting their own instance as already suggested several times on the Fediverse. The Fediverse will eventually establish a concrete way for handling that sort of matters.

nerdawson 4y ago
> The Fediverse will eventually establish a concrete way for handling that sort of matters. They've had years to get this right. This is their moment to shine and they're blowing it.
enumjorge 4y ago
> a famous enough person hosting their own instance So if the likes Obama or Stephen King want to move over to Mastodon their barrier of entry would be to complete this laundry list [1] or find a service that does this for them? Given that they own the instance, they would also need to provide moderation for it. I don't disagree that there are solutions to the scale problem. What I have trouble seeing are solutions that are viable. That's the thing about a centralized service--you have a company that handles all of this so your users don't have to. [1] https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/run-your-own/#so-you-want-to-run-your-own-mastodon-server https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/run-your-own/#so-you-want...
- rsynnott 4y ago
  > or find a service that does this for them? Assuming that Mastodon growth continues, such services will probably emerge (there are already a couple of Mastodon hosting services, but there's probably a market for a "so you're a celebrity who wants a single-user Mastodon instance" service which has yet to be filled). > Given that they own the instance, they would also need to provide moderation for it. If it was a single-user instance, that would be fairly trivial :)
- rcarr 4y ago
  I do wonder if the next phase of social media is to encourage people to use a single user instance similar to mastodon.host. It would probably have to offer more than just twitter though e.g peertube, pixelfed etc. Start with a free tier, have it all running on auto scale and then notify people when they start getting popular that they need to scale up and start paying for their instance if they want to grow their audience. Don’t know if it would work or not but it’s an idea.
  - georgyo 4y ago
    Most likely not, mostly due to lack of discovery. When you start off an an empty instance, the only thing you see is yourself. There are no trends, there are no posts, and everywhere you click is just you. You have to start following people for it start populating, but that requires knowing strings to follow. And then you can you see is stuff in your bubble (maybe a feature?). But it really missing the dopamine response, as after you read the stuff people you follow posted or boosted; there is nothing. A dedicated person can push through this initial period. But for mass appeal, people will quickly bounce if they feel like no one else is there.

zimpenfish 4y ago

> That person then boosts a post from another server and they have effectively DDOSed that server. All the other nodes will start querying that server about that post or image. But that's fixable in several ways - local media cache for an instance, the boost including the preview rather than each client fetching it for themselves, etc. The problem* with ActivityPub is that it's been designed and developed in a bit of user vacuum and it definitely has issues but they can all be worked on. Much like Twitter going from Rails to Scala, etc., to fix their issues.

georgyo 4y ago
There is already a local media cache. My comment doesn't suggest that each follower requests stuff from the home server, but each instance. The instances cache pretty aggressively, but you still have a thundering herd when a popular person boosts a message.
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  > There is already a local media cache. I suppose I should have been clearer - apologies. I was talking about a cache for previews (which would presumably be folded into the local media cache since it's already there.) > you still have a thundering herd when a popular person boosts a message Not if the boost includes the preview - that -should- cut it down significantly (and indeed it has been proposed but is still being bikeshedded by the Mastodon devs because "what if someone sends a fake preview?!?!?!?!")

madrox 4y ago

Yes, this is a real thing that will happen. However, this is no different than a popular website like, say, HN, linking to someone's hack project and giving it the hug of death. This stuff happens, and if any operational element boils down to someone's hobby then you'll see some issues. That doesn't mean Mastodon is inherently flawed any more than web pages being inherently flawed. What will happen is the same thing that happened to web servers and email servers. Businesses will pop up to run your instance for you.