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Psychoanalysis is pretty much discredited as a scientific discipline, nowadays. There's also a lot of evidence of remote therapy being just as effective as in-

Psychoanalysis is pretty much discredited as a scientific discipline, nowadays. There's also a lot of evidence of remote therapy being just as effective as in-person therapy.

philosopher1234 4y ago
Citation needed. Psychoanalysis is widely practiced and it’s efficacy has been repeatedly scientifically demonstrated.
- wizeman 4y ago
  > Citation needed. Sure, I will cite the Wikipedia page on Psychoanalysis, which itself has many citations which you can follow: 1. "Psychoanalysis is a controversial discipline, and its effectiveness as a treatment has been contested" 2. "Linguist Noam Chomsky has criticized psychoanalysis for lacking a scientific basis." 3. "Evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould considered psychoanalysis influenced by pseudoscientific theories such as recapitulation theory." 4. "Psychologists Hans Eysenck, John F. Kihlstrom and others have also criticized the field as pseudoscience." 5. "Philosopher Frank Cioffi cites false claims of a sound scientific verification of the theory and its elements as the strongest basis for classifying the work of Freud and his school as pseudoscience." 6. "Karl Popper argued that psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience because its claims are not testable and cannot be refuted; that is, they are not falsifiable: ....those "clinical observations" which analysts naively believe confirm their theory cannot do this any more than the daily confirmations which astrologers find in their practice. And as for Freud's epic of the Ego, the Super-ego, and the Id, no substantially stronger claim to scientific status can be made for it than for Homer's collected stories from the Olympus." 7. "Imre Lakatos wrote that "Freudians have been nonplussed by Popper's basic challenge concerning scientific honesty. Indeed, they have refused to specify experimental conditions under which they would give up their basic assumptions."" 8. "Scruton nevertheless concluded that psychoanalysis is not genuinely scientific, on the grounds that it involves an unacceptable dependence on metaphor." 9. "The philosopher and physicist Mario Bunge argued that psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience because it violates the ontology and methodology inherent to science. According to Bunge, most psychoanalytic theories are either untestable or unsupported by evidence." 10. "Cognitive scientists, in particular, have also weighed in. Martin Seligman, a prominent academic in positive psychology, wrote that: Thirty years ago, the cognitive revolution in psychology overthrew both Freud and the behaviorists, at least in academia.… The imperialistic Freudian view claims that emotion always drives thought, while the imperialistic cognitive view claims that thought always drives emotion. The evidence, however, is that each drives the other at times." 11. "Historian Henri Ellenberger, who researched the history of Freud, Jung, Adler, and Janet, while writing his book The Discovery of the Unconscious: The History and Evolution of Dynamic Psychiatry, argued that psychoanalysis was not scientific on the grounds of both its methodology and social structure: Psychoanalysis, is it a science? It does not meet the criteria (unified science, defined domain and methodology). It corresponds to the traits of a philosophical sect (closed organisation, highly personal initiation, a doctrine which is changeable but defined by its official adoption, cult and legend of the founder)." 12. "Richard Feynman wrote off psychoanalysts as mere "witch doctors"" 13. "Likewise, psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey, in Witchdoctors and Psychiatrists (1986), agreed that psychoanalytic theories have no more scientific basis than the theories of traditional native healers, "witchdoctors" or modern "cult" alternatives such as EST." 14. "Psychologist Alice Miller charged psychoanalysis with being similar to the poisonous pedagogies" 15. "Psychologist Joel Kupfersmid investigated the validity of the Oedipus complex, examining its nature and origins. He concluded that there is little evidence to support the existence of the Oedipus complex." > Psychoanalysis is widely practiced Astrology is widely practiced as well. Doesn't mean it's scientific. > and it’s efficacy has been repeatedly scientifically demonstrated. That is a very controversial statement within modern psychology. Although I have no doubt that most psychoanalysts believe that, just as homeopaths and other pseudoscientific practitioners also believe that their disciplines are scientific.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    I have to be honest, none of those are particularly convincing, and spamming a bunch of disconnected quotes from a Wikipedia page isn’t a great argument
    - wizeman 4y ago
      > I have to be honest, none of those are particularly convincing, and spamming a bunch of disconnected quotes from a Wikipedia page isn’t a great argument It was not an argument. It was an answer to the parent poster which requested a citation. Which is why I gave him citations. And if such a large list of citations from many experts in the fields of psychology, psychiatry, philosophy, history, cognitive science, etc, including many scientists and hell, even (at least) one Nobel prize winner, doesn't convince you... then I'm sorry to tell you this, but I don't think there could be anything that would convince you. And I'm not sure why you think that you are more qualified than all of them to judge this.
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        I would be much more convinced by a modern meta analysis The problem is that I’m a physicist so I see a wiki page with a bunch of quotes from people of all disciplines including a physicist who was famously a huge sceptic of psychiatry and I think of all the physics pages that have all these “opinions” that are wrong Very few of those quotes mention evidence of outcomes of psychoanalysis but only mention very specific parts of it being questionable. I think you’re jumping the gun a bit. Don’t worry, that’s very common among people who are newer to science
        wizeman 4y ago
        > I would be much more convinced by a modern meta analysis There are many modern meta analysis assessing the (in)efficacy of psychoanalysis and comparing it to other approaches, such as cognitive behavioral therapy (which is the gold standard nowadays) and other approaches, which back my arguments. I am not really interested in going more deeply about this, but I encourage you to research it, if you are interested. There is a lot of research about this. And by the way, I am sure that you can also find meta analysis which will tell you that psychoanalysis works. This does not mean that it is necessarily true (or at least, not for the reasons that people think it is true), for various reasons, some of which I'm sure you can deduce. The problems with psychoanalysis are not just about its (substandard) efficacy. There are many other troubling issues with this practice. This is why it is important to follow a field of study and what current scientists, field practicioners/experts and academics know (from various disciplines and fields of study, in order to get a consensus as best as possible), and not just read some isolated meta analysis and extrapolate conclusions from it. > I think you’re jumping the gun a bit. I think what I'm talking about is pretty well established at this point, it's not news for someone who works in this field. I suggest you do more research before arguing about a field you don't seem knowledgeable about.

Psychoanalysis is pretty much discredited as a scientific discipline, nowadays. There's also a lot of evidence of remote therapy being just as effective as in-person therapy.

philosopher1234 4y ago

Citation needed. Psychoanalysis is widely practiced and it’s efficacy has been repeatedly scientifically demonstrated.

wizeman 4y ago
> Citation needed. Sure, I will cite the Wikipedia page on Psychoanalysis, which itself has many citations which you can follow: 1. "Psychoanalysis is a controversial discipline, and its effectiveness as a treatment has been contested" 2. "Linguist Noam Chomsky has criticized psychoanalysis for lacking a scientific basis." 3. "Evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould considered psychoanalysis influenced by pseudoscientific theories such as recapitulation theory." 4. "Psychologists Hans Eysenck, John F. Kihlstrom and others have also criticized the field as pseudoscience." 5. "Philosopher Frank Cioffi cites false claims of a sound scientific verification of the theory and its elements as the strongest basis for classifying the work of Freud and his school as pseudoscience." 6. "Karl Popper argued that psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience because its claims are not testable and cannot be refuted; that is, they are not falsifiable: ....those "clinical observations" which analysts naively believe confirm their theory cannot do this any more than the daily confirmations which astrologers find in their practice. And as for Freud's epic of the Ego, the Super-ego, and the Id, no substantially stronger claim to scientific status can be made for it than for Homer's collected stories from the Olympus." 7. "Imre Lakatos wrote that "Freudians have been nonplussed by Popper's basic challenge concerning scientific honesty. Indeed, they have refused to specify experimental conditions under which they would give up their basic assumptions."" 8. "Scruton nevertheless concluded that psychoanalysis is not genuinely scientific, on the grounds that it involves an unacceptable dependence on metaphor." 9. "The philosopher and physicist Mario Bunge argued that psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience because it violates the ontology and methodology inherent to science. According to Bunge, most psychoanalytic theories are either untestable or unsupported by evidence." 10. "Cognitive scientists, in particular, have also weighed in. Martin Seligman, a prominent academic in positive psychology, wrote that: Thirty years ago, the cognitive revolution in psychology overthrew both Freud and the behaviorists, at least in academia.… The imperialistic Freudian view claims that emotion always drives thought, while the imperialistic cognitive view claims that thought always drives emotion. The evidence, however, is that each drives the other at times." 11. "Historian Henri Ellenberger, who researched the history of Freud, Jung, Adler, and Janet, while writing his book The Discovery of the Unconscious: The History and Evolution of Dynamic Psychiatry, argued that psychoanalysis was not scientific on the grounds of both its methodology and social structure: Psychoanalysis, is it a science? It does not meet the criteria (unified science, defined domain and methodology). It corresponds to the traits of a philosophical sect (closed organisation, highly personal initiation, a doctrine which is changeable but defined by its official adoption, cult and legend of the founder)." 12. "Richard Feynman wrote off psychoanalysts as mere "witch doctors"" 13. "Likewise, psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey, in Witchdoctors and Psychiatrists (1986), agreed that psychoanalytic theories have no more scientific basis than the theories of traditional native healers, "witchdoctors" or modern "cult" alternatives such as EST." 14. "Psychologist Alice Miller charged psychoanalysis with being similar to the poisonous pedagogies" 15. "Psychologist Joel Kupfersmid investigated the validity of the Oedipus complex, examining its nature and origins. He concluded that there is little evidence to support the existence of the Oedipus complex." > Psychoanalysis is widely practiced Astrology is widely practiced as well. Doesn't mean it's scientific. > and it’s efficacy has been repeatedly scientifically demonstrated. That is a very controversial statement within modern psychology. Although I have no doubt that most psychoanalysts believe that, just as homeopaths and other pseudoscientific practitioners also believe that their disciplines are scientific.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  I have to be honest, none of those are particularly convincing, and spamming a bunch of disconnected quotes from a Wikipedia page isn’t a great argument
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > I have to be honest, none of those are particularly convincing, and spamming a bunch of disconnected quotes from a Wikipedia page isn’t a great argument It was not an argument. It was an answer to the parent poster which requested a citation. Which is why I gave him citations. And if such a large list of citations from many experts in the fields of psychology, psychiatry, philosophy, history, cognitive science, etc, including many scientists and hell, even (at least) one Nobel prize winner, doesn't convince you... then I'm sorry to tell you this, but I don't think there could be anything that would convince you. And I'm not sure why you think that you are more qualified than all of them to judge this.
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      I would be much more convinced by a modern meta analysis The problem is that I’m a physicist so I see a wiki page with a bunch of quotes from people of all disciplines including a physicist who was famously a huge sceptic of psychiatry and I think of all the physics pages that have all these “opinions” that are wrong Very few of those quotes mention evidence of outcomes of psychoanalysis but only mention very specific parts of it being questionable. I think you’re jumping the gun a bit. Don’t worry, that’s very common among people who are newer to science
      - wizeman 4y ago
        > I would be much more convinced by a modern meta analysis There are many modern meta analysis assessing the (in)efficacy of psychoanalysis and comparing it to other approaches, such as cognitive behavioral therapy (which is the gold standard nowadays) and other approaches, which back my arguments. I am not really interested in going more deeply about this, but I encourage you to research it, if you are interested. There is a lot of research about this. And by the way, I am sure that you can also find meta analysis which will tell you that psychoanalysis works. This does not mean that it is necessarily true (or at least, not for the reasons that people think it is true), for various reasons, some of which I'm sure you can deduce. The problems with psychoanalysis are not just about its (substandard) efficacy. There are many other troubling issues with this practice. This is why it is important to follow a field of study and what current scientists, field practicioners/experts and academics know (from various disciplines and fields of study, in order to get a consensus as best as possible), and not just read some isolated meta analysis and extrapolate conclusions from it. > I think you’re jumping the gun a bit. I think what I'm talking about is pretty well established at this point, it's not news for someone who works in this field. I suggest you do more research before arguing about a field you don't seem knowledgeable about.