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Anything that is subjective and not discrete inevitably ends up lost in semantic arguments that achieve little. It’s useful to have a high level archetype, but

Anything that is subjective and not discrete inevitably ends up lost in semantic arguments that achieve little. It’s useful to have a high level archetype, but the clusters are always fuzzy and we don’t gain much by carving out new names for things along the periphery. Identity politics get screwy due to in groups trying to maintain order and rigid rules while some are inflexible. How many times do you try to see a conversation about an idea get lost in a debate about whether the idea falls under a particular ideology rather than the merits of the idea itself? What’s socialism? What’s feminism? What’s a conservative? What’s queer? We make up buckets and get flustered when people define buckets differently or when some examples cross the boundaries. Then some people begin to believe that the definitions hold objective authority and place great significance on minor differences. Then people who feel they don’t fit exactly a definition declare they must be something new. Then two niche subgroups fight because they share a similar space and want the other to be made illegitimate. Then another body wants to maintain unity across the broader community so they declare all things are legit. Then the community looks stupid and confusing because it’s got so many niche classifications. Gender identity, Christianity, political ideologies, etc. take your pick. People trying to define things that are not actually discrete is just an invitation for nonsense. It’s fine to be “like Group X but different with respect to some qualities” and not make that a whole new taxonomical sub group.

yucky 4y ago
I think that's the issue though right? If we accept that it won't necessarily make sense or follow any logical consistent rules because its subjective, then how exactly can we expect other to take it seriously? I'm not trying to be dismissive either, but my mind works logically. If I'm told "we're just making it up as we go and it's different for everyone" then you can't expect me to believe I need to actually take it seriously. It really does sound like people are just taking the concept of personality and tryin to overlay it on something where it doesn't fit, only leading to increased confusion. Ultimately, what is the point? What is the goal?
- oneoff786 4y ago
  I do think people that identify as incredibly niche sub types are doing something dumb. Similar to the vast majority of people that do this for other dimensions of their identity or attempt to do it for others’ identity. But believing this to be the case isn’t incompatible with respecting that they feel different from the “normal” archetype or just generally acknowledging their preferred identity as it’s the closest thing they’ve got to describe themselves. Most people aligned with a given label are pretty reasonable and won’t demand you do anything too out of your way. Yes there are many exceptions but such is the case for every dimension of identity. This one is just a dimension that many people are eager to assert doesn’t exist.; Sometimes asserting that if you can’t cleanly identify as something easily defined that you’re just making up your differences which is of course also incorrect reasoning. People suck at such types of thinking and most cultures encourage against it to empower in group unity.
  - yucky 4y ago
    One could argue that it creates an incredible imposition on logically oriented individuals to tell them that they are bigots if they're not willing to play pretend.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      No not really. You’re not being logical if you reject someone’s preferred identity on the pedantic assertion that it’s an approximation of their collective beliefs rather than a rigid classification; and conflate that pedantic assertion with some additional implication that their person beliefs about themselves are less valid. You’re not a bigot for doing this. You are being an asshole nonetheless. And you don’t come off as more intelligent, just more clueless; even if you are in fact more intelligent.
      - yucky 4y ago
        That's simply not true. If I see an apple and someone tells me I must refer to it as an orange because that is what they want to pretend it to be, then the best course of action is to either tell them that it is in fact an orange, or to just ignore them. It is never the right answer to encourage their incorrect demands. Would you also suggest we pretend the voices that a schizophrenic hears are actually there and real? If not, why not? It's real to them..
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
You're the one trying to fit everything into groups here. GP is saying there is no group. You can't say what the gender woman is; how can GP just accept your made up term? Is cleaning more woman-like? If I like cleaning but whatch sports am I a woman? What about gardening? You need to give some desription of men and a women. What is the "high level archetype" of a woman? Gossiping? Cooking?
- oneoff786 4y ago
  That is… really sad dude. None of those things are relevant. No. You are not a woman if you like cleaning. People do not need to engage in traditional gender roles to maintain their normative gender. A woman gender identity is someone who feels like a woman. A man’s gender identity is someone who feels like a man. A non binary identity is one that does not feel like either. This really is not difficult to understand.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    >>You can't say what the gender woman is; how can GP just accept your made up term? >A woman gender identity is someone who feels like a woman. A man’s gender identity is someone who feels like a man. Wow, thanks for answering the question. >This really is not difficult to understand "A tefrad gender idenity is someone who feels like a tefrad, what's difficult to understand?" "What, you want me to explain what that is in a non-recursive manner, as we would do for any other word? That is… really sad dude. Why do you hate tefrads?"
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      If a magic potion turned your body into that of female, what are some of the things you would think about that retain your male identity? Probably it’s how you fit in society, what you want people to assume you are, how you want to be understood by possible romantic partners, what elements of physical appearance you like and don’t like about yourself?
      - 4y ago

yucky 4y ago

I think that's the issue though right? If we accept that it won't necessarily make sense or follow any logical consistent rules because its subjective, then how exactly can we expect other to take it seriously? I'm not trying to be dismissive either, but my mind works logically. If I'm told "we're just making it up as we go and it's different for everyone" then you can't expect me to believe I need to actually take it seriously. It really does sound like people are just taking the concept of personality and tryin to overlay it on something where it doesn't fit, only leading to increased confusion. Ultimately, what is the point? What is the goal?

oneoff786 4y ago
I do think people that identify as incredibly niche sub types are doing something dumb. Similar to the vast majority of people that do this for other dimensions of their identity or attempt to do it for others’ identity. But believing this to be the case isn’t incompatible with respecting that they feel different from the “normal” archetype or just generally acknowledging their preferred identity as it’s the closest thing they’ve got to describe themselves. Most people aligned with a given label are pretty reasonable and won’t demand you do anything too out of your way. Yes there are many exceptions but such is the case for every dimension of identity. This one is just a dimension that many people are eager to assert doesn’t exist.; Sometimes asserting that if you can’t cleanly identify as something easily defined that you’re just making up your differences which is of course also incorrect reasoning. People suck at such types of thinking and most cultures encourage against it to empower in group unity.
- yucky 4y ago
  One could argue that it creates an incredible imposition on logically oriented individuals to tell them that they are bigots if they're not willing to play pretend.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    No not really. You’re not being logical if you reject someone’s preferred identity on the pedantic assertion that it’s an approximation of their collective beliefs rather than a rigid classification; and conflate that pedantic assertion with some additional implication that their person beliefs about themselves are less valid. You’re not a bigot for doing this. You are being an asshole nonetheless. And you don’t come off as more intelligent, just more clueless; even if you are in fact more intelligent.
    - yucky 4y ago
      That's simply not true. If I see an apple and someone tells me I must refer to it as an orange because that is what they want to pretend it to be, then the best course of action is to either tell them that it is in fact an orange, or to just ignore them. It is never the right answer to encourage their incorrect demands. Would you also suggest we pretend the voices that a schizophrenic hears are actually there and real? If not, why not? It's real to them..

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago

You're the one trying to fit everything into groups here. GP is saying there is no group. You can't say what the gender woman is; how can GP just accept your made up term? Is cleaning more woman-like? If I like cleaning but whatch sports am I a woman? What about gardening? You need to give some desription of men and a women. What is the "high level archetype" of a woman? Gossiping? Cooking?

oneoff786 4y ago
That is… really sad dude. None of those things are relevant. No. You are not a woman if you like cleaning. People do not need to engage in traditional gender roles to maintain their normative gender. A woman gender identity is someone who feels like a woman. A man’s gender identity is someone who feels like a man. A non binary identity is one that does not feel like either. This really is not difficult to understand.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  >>You can't say what the gender woman is; how can GP just accept your made up term? >A woman gender identity is someone who feels like a woman. A man’s gender identity is someone who feels like a man. Wow, thanks for answering the question. >This really is not difficult to understand "A tefrad gender idenity is someone who feels like a tefrad, what's difficult to understand?" "What, you want me to explain what that is in a non-recursive manner, as we would do for any other word? That is… really sad dude. Why do you hate tefrads?"
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    If a magic potion turned your body into that of female, what are some of the things you would think about that retain your male identity? Probably it’s how you fit in society, what you want people to assume you are, how you want to be understood by possible romantic partners, what elements of physical appearance you like and don’t like about yourself?
    - 4y ago