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A Sign That Tuition Is Too High: Some Colleges Are Slashing It in Half

55 points by champagnepapi 4y ago

black_13 4y ago
toomuchtodo 4y ago
https://archive.ph/suwej https://archive.ph/suwej
rayiner 4y ago
What is the point of these non-elite colleges? Does it serve the public good for them to be eligible for federal student loans? Tuition at our local community college is $4,000 a year. The facilities and staff seem more than adequate for training people for routine jobs requiring more than a high school education. It seems like expensive cargo culting to send all these ordinary students to expensive universities that ape the blue blood trappings of Harvard and Yale. Maybe rich families whose kids can’t get into those schools should have something like this school as an option. But why divert public resources to support them?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > What is the point of these non-elite colleges? The lead example, Colby-Sawyer, seems to be “non-elite” only in that traditional evaluations of elite status rely largely on graduate/research programs, and its a baccalaureate-only institution, and apparently one of the better (despite being small) undergraduate institutions in the region. > Does it serve the public good for them to be eligible for federal student loans? Federal student loans shouldn’t exist, but make no less sense at schools like Colby-Sawyer than any others. > Tuition at our local community college is $4,000 a year. Comnunity colleges generally do not have baccalaureate degrees, and do not substitute for schools that do any more than those schools substitute for graduate schools. > Why divert public resources supporting these extraneous colleges? Because they aren’t extraneous. > It seems like expensive cargo culting to send all these ordinary students to expensive universities that ape the blue blood trappings of Harvard and Yale. Colby-Sawyer very much does not ape the trappings of Harvard and Yale, and one of the draws of schools like it is that the focus is on undergraduate education, not graduate research with undergraduate programs as an afterthought among faculty duties.
  - schemester 4y ago
    Explain how this isn’t non-elite. https://colby-sawyer.edu/academics/majors https://colby-sawyer.edu/academics/majors
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      Lists of majors are not what makes a college elite or non-elite; there are elite and non-elite schools in every field. (OTOH, that list makes it pretty clear what makes it something a community college won’t substitute for, since those are mostly bachelor’s programs, plus a professional masters; with the few associate’s programs in health sciences being the only thing that most community colleges might be able to provide, even before considering qualitative differences.)
      - schemester 4y ago
        The school is not remotely elite, that is a fact, and the list of majors it offers is a tell. You think I’m saying the majors list _causes_ it to be elite or not. Or you don’t really think that.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        No, I don’t know what you are saying because you are being deliberately indirect amd avoiding making an argument rather than vague handwaving and innuendo.
    - cafard 4y ago
      An odd collection. One can major in Creative Writing, but not English or Comparative Literature?
  - poulsbohemian 4y ago
    > Comnunity colleges generally do not have baccalaureate degrees Even this is changing - many of our community colleges in Washington state now offer a BA, especially designed for non-trad students who are returning to the classroom and/ or need a more flexible schedule.
- space_fountain 4y ago
  I’m a bit confused by the thesis. Is the idea is we should have community college and Stanford and nothing in between?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Is the idea is we should have community college and Stanford and nothing in between? Apparently community colleges and Ivy League schools, and nothing else, I would assume from the Harvard/Yale reference.
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  Or you know we could make sure that public schools stick to a budget instead of draining students like vampires. Limit student loans to something reasonable and make them deal with it. If they don't become "world class research centers", who cares, students are there to become adults and get an education. They probably don't need "world class sports and entertainment" facilities. Bunking with someone in a cheap dorm room with basic almost prison like accouterments was one of the happiest times of my life lol. I could make enough money to pay for tuition and room/board over a summer or semester. This was at a middle of the road state university. Now it would be almost impossible.
FrontierPsych 4y ago
I don't know why people even consider going to a private university. Public universities are subsidized by the public. In California, you can go to community college for 2 years and get general education out of the way - transfer them classes. It is free if parents make under $40Kper year, or about $2K per year in tuition if over that. And annual tuition at Cal State University is about $6-$7K per year. So basically, you can get a university degree in California for less than $20K. Not including room and board and books, of course. But those costs are the same anywhere, so it zeroes out. Tuition is the biggie.
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  Probably the only private schools worth it are the most famous ivy league schools where you can network with some of the richest people in the world (from the point of view of someone not from that 0.01% of wealth)
  - FrontierPsych 4y ago
    Right. Tier 1 schools are excepted, and they are in a class of their own and almost always worth the price, for sure. But there are little nothing private no-name universities out there that are charging $40-$50K in tuition alone. And people are paying it. For example, Adrian College (???) in Michigan costs $40K per year in tuition. WTF? Landmark College (???) in Vermont - almost $63,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF? St Lawrence University (???) in New York - $62,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF?
    - throwaway74829 4y ago
      What a vulgar rendition: "little nothing no-name universities." There's more to a college than how much money it's going to make you throughout your entire life. In the case of St Lawrence and Adrian: this is where you send your children to if you don't want them to end up "of the world." They're small campuses, in controlled environments, with people from similar backgrounds (i.e. long-time upper middle class, no intentions of "moving up" or down). $40-50k a year for a couple of years is absolutely nothing if you want to make certain your offspring don't end up silly (and if you're of that notion, you surely can cover the cost). For Landmark, it's obvious from a cursory glance of their info that this is a "special case," and different from the rest: it's a college tailored towards those with learning disabilities. Whether or not this justifies the costs is another matter, but it cannot be seriously lumped in as a regular college for comparison. T1 is more marketing than substance. Most of the "Ivy League"s have fallen off since coming into public consciousness, and being flooded by people other than those that once brought it a good name. Even the "grinder schools" (e.g. CMU, MIT, etc.) are following in similar fashion (again, appearance over substance). Will they expose you to a wide range of people that may end up being useful towards some end in the future? Yes, but it's obscene to even think such a thought.
gbronner 4y ago
Perfect price discrimination raises the maximum amount of revenue, but tends to rub perlite the wrong way
M3L0NM4N 4y ago
Drake?
LatteLazy 4y ago
From the outside, the US university tuition system looks concerningly like the used car market. Questionable sales techniques, aimed at impressionable customers who don't understand exactly what they're getting (and think they're getting a lot more), very little price transparency, and easy credit acting as a force multiplier...
etempleton 4y ago
In most cases what colleges are doing here is changing their tuition model. Most private schools have a high discount rate now. This is a relatively new phenomenon where almost every student pays less than full tuition. The advantage for the school is they can not only be selective with who they admit, but award more money to the students that are most desired / highest need thus increasing the chances of those students attending. This model works pretty well except it isn’t very transparent until you apply and get a financial aid offer. This can lead to some people not even applying because they think they will never be able to afford it. So a one price for everyone regardless of talent/need is making a comeback.
zomg 4y ago
whenever i see articles related to the high cost of tuition, i always take a moment to point out that this phenomena is largely government-driven, with the rest of the blame being societal. only until the government stops lending tuition money to anyone with a pulse will the true, economic cost of higher education come down. in order to do that, a politician will need to commit political suicide to propose such legislation, which will never happen. couple that with the "go to college and get a good job" mentality in the US and it's no surprise nearly all US high school students feel compelled to borrow a truck-load of money and go to college. why do we look down on the trades? i have friends who never went to college, learned a skill, and are making gobs of money (with no debt to service!).

55 points by champagnepapi 4y ago

black_13 4y ago

toomuchtodo 4y ago

https://archive.ph/suwej https://archive.ph/suwej

rayiner 4y ago

What is the point of these non-elite colleges? Does it serve the public good for them to be eligible for federal student loans? Tuition at our local community college is $4,000 a year. The facilities and staff seem more than adequate for training people for routine jobs requiring more than a high school education. It seems like expensive cargo culting to send all these ordinary students to expensive universities that ape the blue blood trappings of Harvard and Yale. Maybe rich families whose kids can’t get into those schools should have something like this school as an option. But why divert public resources to support them?

dragonwriter 4y ago
> What is the point of these non-elite colleges? The lead example, Colby-Sawyer, seems to be “non-elite” only in that traditional evaluations of elite status rely largely on graduate/research programs, and its a baccalaureate-only institution, and apparently one of the better (despite being small) undergraduate institutions in the region. > Does it serve the public good for them to be eligible for federal student loans? Federal student loans shouldn’t exist, but make no less sense at schools like Colby-Sawyer than any others. > Tuition at our local community college is $4,000 a year. Comnunity colleges generally do not have baccalaureate degrees, and do not substitute for schools that do any more than those schools substitute for graduate schools. > Why divert public resources supporting these extraneous colleges? Because they aren’t extraneous. > It seems like expensive cargo culting to send all these ordinary students to expensive universities that ape the blue blood trappings of Harvard and Yale. Colby-Sawyer very much does not ape the trappings of Harvard and Yale, and one of the draws of schools like it is that the focus is on undergraduate education, not graduate research with undergraduate programs as an afterthought among faculty duties.
- schemester 4y ago
  Explain how this isn’t non-elite. https://colby-sawyer.edu/academics/majors https://colby-sawyer.edu/academics/majors
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    Lists of majors are not what makes a college elite or non-elite; there are elite and non-elite schools in every field. (OTOH, that list makes it pretty clear what makes it something a community college won’t substitute for, since those are mostly bachelor’s programs, plus a professional masters; with the few associate’s programs in health sciences being the only thing that most community colleges might be able to provide, even before considering qualitative differences.)
    - schemester 4y ago
      The school is not remotely elite, that is a fact, and the list of majors it offers is a tell. You think I’m saying the majors list _causes_ it to be elite or not. Or you don’t really think that.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        No, I don’t know what you are saying because you are being deliberately indirect amd avoiding making an argument rather than vague handwaving and innuendo.
  - cafard 4y ago
    An odd collection. One can major in Creative Writing, but not English or Comparative Literature?
- poulsbohemian 4y ago
  > Comnunity colleges generally do not have baccalaureate degrees Even this is changing - many of our community colleges in Washington state now offer a BA, especially designed for non-trad students who are returning to the classroom and/ or need a more flexible schedule.
space_fountain 4y ago
I’m a bit confused by the thesis. Is the idea is we should have community college and Stanford and nothing in between?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Is the idea is we should have community college and Stanford and nothing in between? Apparently community colleges and Ivy League schools, and nothing else, I would assume from the Harvard/Yale reference.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
Or you know we could make sure that public schools stick to a budget instead of draining students like vampires. Limit student loans to something reasonable and make them deal with it. If they don't become "world class research centers", who cares, students are there to become adults and get an education. They probably don't need "world class sports and entertainment" facilities. Bunking with someone in a cheap dorm room with basic almost prison like accouterments was one of the happiest times of my life lol. I could make enough money to pay for tuition and room/board over a summer or semester. This was at a middle of the road state university. Now it would be almost impossible.

FrontierPsych 4y ago

I don't know why people even consider going to a private university. Public universities are subsidized by the public. In California, you can go to community college for 2 years and get general education out of the way - transfer them classes. It is free if parents make under $40Kper year, or about $2K per year in tuition if over that. And annual tuition at Cal State University is about $6-$7K per year. So basically, you can get a university degree in California for less than $20K. Not including room and board and books, of course. But those costs are the same anywhere, so it zeroes out. Tuition is the biggie.

stjohnswarts 4y ago
Probably the only private schools worth it are the most famous ivy league schools where you can network with some of the richest people in the world (from the point of view of someone not from that 0.01% of wealth)
- FrontierPsych 4y ago
  Right. Tier 1 schools are excepted, and they are in a class of their own and almost always worth the price, for sure. But there are little nothing private no-name universities out there that are charging $40-$50K in tuition alone. And people are paying it. For example, Adrian College (???) in Michigan costs $40K per year in tuition. WTF? Landmark College (???) in Vermont - almost $63,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF? St Lawrence University (???) in New York - $62,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF?
  - throwaway74829 4y ago
    What a vulgar rendition: "little nothing no-name universities." There's more to a college than how much money it's going to make you throughout your entire life. In the case of St Lawrence and Adrian: this is where you send your children to if you don't want them to end up "of the world." They're small campuses, in controlled environments, with people from similar backgrounds (i.e. long-time upper middle class, no intentions of "moving up" or down). $40-50k a year for a couple of years is absolutely nothing if you want to make certain your offspring don't end up silly (and if you're of that notion, you surely can cover the cost). For Landmark, it's obvious from a cursory glance of their info that this is a "special case," and different from the rest: it's a college tailored towards those with learning disabilities. Whether or not this justifies the costs is another matter, but it cannot be seriously lumped in as a regular college for comparison. T1 is more marketing than substance. Most of the "Ivy League"s have fallen off since coming into public consciousness, and being flooded by people other than those that once brought it a good name. Even the "grinder schools" (e.g. CMU, MIT, etc.) are following in similar fashion (again, appearance over substance). Will they expose you to a wide range of people that may end up being useful towards some end in the future? Yes, but it's obscene to even think such a thought.

gbronner 4y ago

Perfect price discrimination raises the maximum amount of revenue, but tends to rub perlite the wrong way

M3L0NM4N 4y ago

Drake?

LatteLazy 4y ago

From the outside, the US university tuition system looks concerningly like the used car market. Questionable sales techniques, aimed at impressionable customers who don't understand exactly what they're getting (and think they're getting a lot more), very little price transparency, and easy credit acting as a force multiplier...

etempleton 4y ago

In most cases what colleges are doing here is changing their tuition model. Most private schools have a high discount rate now. This is a relatively new phenomenon where almost every student pays less than full tuition. The advantage for the school is they can not only be selective with who they admit, but award more money to the students that are most desired / highest need thus increasing the chances of those students attending. This model works pretty well except it isn’t very transparent until you apply and get a financial aid offer. This can lead to some people not even applying because they think they will never be able to afford it. So a one price for everyone regardless of talent/need is making a comeback.

zomg 4y ago

whenever i see articles related to the high cost of tuition, i always take a moment to point out that this phenomena is largely government-driven, with the rest of the blame being societal. only until the government stops lending tuition money to anyone with a pulse will the true, economic cost of higher education come down. in order to do that, a politician will need to commit political suicide to propose such legislation, which will never happen. couple that with the "go to college and get a good job" mentality in the US and it's no surprise nearly all US high school students feel compelled to borrow a truck-load of money and go to college. why do we look down on the trades? i have friends who never went to college, learned a skill, and are making gobs of money (with no debt to service!).