3 ms·

Hi. I'm nonbinary. I do, in fact, honestly and genuinely think that Newspeaking the rest of you into believing that I'm not someone with some kind of horrible m

Hi. I'm nonbinary. I do, in fact, honestly and genuinely think that Newspeaking the rest of you into believing that I'm not someone with some kind of horrible mental illness or whatever it is you want to believe these days is a Good Thing. And it's fewer words. So please stop saying "preferred pronouns." I've also heard people say "PGPs," meaning "preferred gender pronouns," which is silly and makes me think you're talking about encryption. Please also stop saying "identifies as." I don't identify as a damn thing, I am who I am. You have no chance to survive, make your time, ha ha ha ha...

CoastalCoder 4y ago
"Preferred pronouns" is a friendly request, "pronouns" is a rhetorical strong-arm. I appreciate that you want certain pronouns to be used. But why does your preference trump mine? I.e., why must I submit to you? Edit: I realized my comment's tone seems a bit harsh. Just to clarify, my intention is to debate your proposal, not bash on you as a person.
- sverona 4y ago
  I don't want certain pronouns to be used, I am demanding their usage. I have a right to do this because those pronouns address me. This is the same as any other boundary set by anyone. You can call me by the wrong pronouns if you wish, in which case I will stop talking to you. If you think this is militant behavior, it is, but I submit that you do the same thing and don't realize it. Consider how you would behave if the shoes were on the other feet.
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    > I have a right to do this because those pronouns address me. Actually they don't address you. They refer to you. A term of address is "you". Pronouns are terms of reference. This is one of the things that people misunderstand about pronouns like him/her. If I'm talking about someone, I get to choose how to do it. I can refer to someone as a fool, as "that tall blonde girl", or as "the guy with the huge beard from the grocery store". None of these people get to police my speech about them. Things are somewhat different if I am referring to someone and am in their presence. In that case I would just use the person's first or last name. But some people are now taking issue with talking around preferred pronouns by using a person's name. For me, that is a bridge too far.
    - sverona 4y ago
      Semantics aside, if you don't want to refer to someone the way they want to be referred to, then kindly consider not speaking to them.
      - grumple 4y ago
        You missed the point, which is that these pronouns are explicitly never used when speaking to you. They are not used for addressing you. They are in reference to you, so they will only occur when other people are speaking to one other.
        sverona 4y ago
        True. I have in mind situations in which I am physically there. I should have said, "If you don't want to refer to someone properly, then don't refer to them at all."
    - CoastalCoder 4y ago
      > If I'm talking about someone, I get to choose how to do it. I can refer to someone as a fool, as "that tall blonde girl", or as "the guy with the huge beard from the grocery store". None of these people get to police my speech about them. I was curious about the legal situation w.r.t. forcing use of preferred pronouns. Apparently the U.S. government currently cannot do that [0], but Ireland is the opposite [1]. I'm unclear what the current situation is regarding employer-enforced pronoun usage, particularly in at-will-employment states. IIUC (and that's a big "if"), it's a messy legal topic because of competing protected classes. [0] https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/the-6th-circuit-reached-the-right-conclusion-preferred-pronouns-other-courts https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/the-6th-circuit-r... [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ireland-teacher/fact-check-irish-teacher-enoch-burke-was-jailed-for-contempt-of-court-idUSL1N30D1J7 https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ireland-teacher/fa...
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    > I don't want certain pronouns to be used, I am demanding their usage. Thank you for stating this plainly! I think that, very often, debates on these topics are hamstrung by one/both sides assuming that the other is being disingenuous. I think our best hope of making progress on these things is to have an honest, shared understanding of everyone's positions and goals. I'm so grateful that you were willing to do that.
JetAlone 4y ago

CoastalCoder 4y ago

"Preferred pronouns" is a friendly request, "pronouns" is a rhetorical strong-arm. I appreciate that you want certain pronouns to be used. But why does your preference trump mine? I.e., why must I submit to you? Edit: I realized my comment's tone seems a bit harsh. Just to clarify, my intention is to debate your proposal, not bash on you as a person.

sverona 4y ago
I don't want certain pronouns to be used, I am demanding their usage. I have a right to do this because those pronouns address me. This is the same as any other boundary set by anyone. You can call me by the wrong pronouns if you wish, in which case I will stop talking to you. If you think this is militant behavior, it is, but I submit that you do the same thing and don't realize it. Consider how you would behave if the shoes were on the other feet.
- crackercrews 4y ago
  > I have a right to do this because those pronouns address me. Actually they don't address you. They refer to you. A term of address is "you". Pronouns are terms of reference. This is one of the things that people misunderstand about pronouns like him/her. If I'm talking about someone, I get to choose how to do it. I can refer to someone as a fool, as "that tall blonde girl", or as "the guy with the huge beard from the grocery store". None of these people get to police my speech about them. Things are somewhat different if I am referring to someone and am in their presence. In that case I would just use the person's first or last name. But some people are now taking issue with talking around preferred pronouns by using a person's name. For me, that is a bridge too far.
  - sverona 4y ago
    Semantics aside, if you don't want to refer to someone the way they want to be referred to, then kindly consider not speaking to them.
    - grumple 4y ago
      You missed the point, which is that these pronouns are explicitly never used when speaking to you. They are not used for addressing you. They are in reference to you, so they will only occur when other people are speaking to one other.
      - sverona 4y ago
        True. I have in mind situations in which I am physically there. I should have said, "If you don't want to refer to someone properly, then don't refer to them at all."
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    > If I'm talking about someone, I get to choose how to do it. I can refer to someone as a fool, as "that tall blonde girl", or as "the guy with the huge beard from the grocery store". None of these people get to police my speech about them. I was curious about the legal situation w.r.t. forcing use of preferred pronouns. Apparently the U.S. government currently cannot do that [0], but Ireland is the opposite [1]. I'm unclear what the current situation is regarding employer-enforced pronoun usage, particularly in at-will-employment states. IIUC (and that's a big "if"), it's a messy legal topic because of competing protected classes. [0] https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/the-6th-circuit-reached-the-right-conclusion-preferred-pronouns-other-courts https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/the-6th-circuit-r... [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ireland-teacher/fact-check-irish-teacher-enoch-burke-was-jailed-for-contempt-of-court-idUSL1N30D1J7 https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ireland-teacher/fa...
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  > I don't want certain pronouns to be used, I am demanding their usage. Thank you for stating this plainly! I think that, very often, debates on these topics are hamstrung by one/both sides assuming that the other is being disingenuous. I think our best hope of making progress on these things is to have an honest, shared understanding of everyone's positions and goals. I'm so grateful that you were willing to do that.

JetAlone 4y ago