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This seems like they walked in looking for proof of their already established conclusion. If you look at Finland, Australia, Korea, Japan and New Zealand you s

This seems like they walked in looking for proof of their already established conclusion. If you look at Finland, Australia, Korea, Japan and New Zealand you see a cluster of countries who are paying their teachers well and who aren't getting results (Edit: By this I mean the countries below them aren't getting results yet are paying the same amount). Compare Denmark to Finland or Spain to New Zealand and then explain to me how the authors' thesis rings true. Plus we have anecdotal evidence that contradicts their conclusion in the U.S: Individual State salaries vary pretty significantly ($37,000 to $59,000) yet education results don't seem to reflect those salaries Teacher Salary By State: http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state State Education Rankings: http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/september/state-education-ranking-shows-vermont-1-south-carolina-last http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/september/state-education-ran... I don't entirely disagree with the thesis that making "teacher" a more revered position will draw better people to it. But there are clearly other factors at play that the authors chose to disregard because they wanted to prove their already established conclusion. (If it were me I'd be comparing Switzerland, Germany and Sweden and trying to figure what the differences are there)

wwweston 15y ago
"If you look at Finland... paying their teachers well and who aren't getting results." I'd been given to understand Finland is generally regarded as one of the better education systems in the world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm http://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm http://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm http://schoolmatters.knoxnews.com/forum/topics/how-does-finlands-education http://schoolmatters.knoxnews.com/forum/topics/how-does-finl...
- TomOfTTB 15y ago
  You could very well be right. My point was the authors' conclusion didn't match their underlying data. So the validity of their underlying data didn't come into play.
- anamax 15y ago
  > I'd been given to understand Finland is generally regarded as one of the better education systems in the world. Of course Finland (and most Northern European countries) has another advantage - they're teaching Finns. Pretty much anything you do in those monocultures "works". So, their success with any program tells us nothing about how the same program will work in a cultures where things do fail, let alone diverse environments.
pilom 15y ago
You read the graph wrong. Finland, Australia, Korea, Japan and New Zealand get better results for the same amount of pay. The farther above the line in their graph, the better the relative performance of the teachers given their income and vise versa, the countries below the graph have worse results given their income.
- TomOfTTB 15y ago
  I think I phrased it badly but the point still stands. The authors point was that teachers pay is the deciding factor in results. My point was those countries pay the same Denmark and the UK yet are getting better results. So pay is not the deciding factor.

wwweston 15y ago

"If you look at Finland... paying their teachers well and who aren't getting results." I'd been given to understand Finland is generally regarded as one of the better education systems in the world. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm http://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm http://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm http://schoolmatters.knoxnews.com/forum/topics/how-does-finlands-education http://schoolmatters.knoxnews.com/forum/topics/how-does-finl...

TomOfTTB 15y ago
You could very well be right. My point was the authors' conclusion didn't match their underlying data. So the validity of their underlying data didn't come into play.
anamax 15y ago
> I'd been given to understand Finland is generally regarded as one of the better education systems in the world. Of course Finland (and most Northern European countries) has another advantage - they're teaching Finns. Pretty much anything you do in those monocultures "works". So, their success with any program tells us nothing about how the same program will work in a cultures where things do fail, let alone diverse environments.

pilom 15y ago

You read the graph wrong. Finland, Australia, Korea, Japan and New Zealand get better results for the same amount of pay. The farther above the line in their graph, the better the relative performance of the teachers given their income and vise versa, the countries below the graph have worse results given their income.

TomOfTTB 15y ago
I think I phrased it badly but the point still stands. The authors point was that teachers pay is the deciding factor in results. My point was those countries pay the same Denmark and the UK yet are getting better results. So pay is not the deciding factor.