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(from another thread) Any attorneys want to weigh in on whether - or when - this becomes an anti-competitive/anti-trust concern, either in the US (FTC) or the E

(from another thread) Any attorneys want to weigh in on whether - or when - this becomes an anti-competitive/anti-trust concern, either in the US (FTC) or the EU? Related reading: * Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) Article 102, on abusive conduct by companies that have a dominant position in a market: https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/procedures/article-102-investigations_en https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/procedures... . Any EU resident can file a complaint. * FTC's guidelines for firms with market power: https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/anticompetitive-practices https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/anticompetitive-practices, https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/refusal-deal https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... * "Antitrust and Social Networking" (2012): https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=facpubs&httpsredir=1&referer= https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188... (PDF)

toomuchtodo 4y ago
I have already filed an FTC anti competitive complaint using a Wayback link of the post over coffee this morning. I encourage others to do the same. You don’t need deep pockets, let the executive branch do the work for you. That’s their job. Takes ~5 min. https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/ https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/ If you’re in Europe: https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/procedures/complaints_en https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/procedures...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- class4behavior 4y ago
  It may be important to highlight that both this new policy just as Musk's own straight-forward comments have already proven that bird site not only suppressed engagement with but also defamed its competition solely because they are the competition. Especially companies - like the German and Japanese ones running the top 3 instances - or associations have the right to complaint even though Mastodon is not their own brand.
andrew_ 4y ago
Interesting thought. Also curious on consequences.
greatgib 4y ago
Awesome in stupidity, because there is also not a fake good reason like "there are bad content that we don't control there so we want to protect our users" but just "you should stay here and we forbid any link to a platform we don't own". Also that it is not a rule that is there since ever, like apple could have done, but a sudden change after an already controversial situation. It is awesome to see how Elon is behaving like a spoiled kid! I really hope that twitter financial will crash so that he will be ruined and the platform will be sold by the bank he used for the LBO.
- MrMan 4y ago
  automatic for the people, Tumblr edition
- nolok 4y ago
  I don't know if it's "the" or "one of the" bank used for the LBO, but my understanding is that Financial has already partially left the building by stopping all their advertising on twitter after musk first week there...
KarlKemp 4y ago
I believe it doesn’t fit the generic laws against anticompetitive practices, mostly because they don’t have dominance in any market. Compare Apple’s iOS stores. There may be something in newer legislation which has made data portability a priority. And Apple has just changed its practice, but due only to very specific pressure. So I’d say this is rather pathetic, but not illegal.
- troydavis 4y ago
  > mostly because they don’t have dominance in any market. Keep in mind that at least the FTC generally considers a market to be, roughly, goods and services that are close substitutes for one another[1]. That is, if one good or service can be substituted for another, those may be in the same market. However, as the FTC's summary says, "evidence that customers highly value certain product attributes may limit their willingness to substitute other products." The size and breadth of a network is a product attribute that affects a customer's willingness and ability to substitute any other product. For anyone else into this topic, "Antitrust and Social Networking" (2012) is a good place to start: https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=facpubs&httpsredir=1&referer= https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188... (PDF). [1]: https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/mergers/markets https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...
  - KarlKemp 4y ago
    Twitter’s inclusion of Facebook points to the idea that they consider it a competitor, and would be one far larger.
    - ummonk 4y ago
      That doesn't mean Facebook is a substitute for Twitter (it obviously isn't).
TigeriusKirk 4y ago
I suspect this would factor heavily into any such concern- "Additionally, we allow paid advertisement/promotion for any of the prohibited social media platforms."
- tedunangst 4y ago
  Except that's not true. > They said they allow you to pay to promote links to other platform, but considering how it was immediately reject from promotion it seems that automation is being used to make that line a... uhhh... total lie. https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1604538254795198465 https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1604538254795198465
snowwrestler 4y ago
I don’t see how this is a legal problem for Twitter, at least in the U.S. They are not a dominant force on the Web or even in social media; they have little market power. And any data that shows lots of people leaving for other social media platforms would actually help prove that competition is strong (ironically). Free speech cuts both ways. It’s legal for Twitter to block links to Mastodon for the same reason it was legal for them to block the sitting U.S. President from posting.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Yes and no. Twitter is dominant for their slice of social media, as demonstrated by the fact that a lot of the people who think about leaving don't see viable alternatives. But I agree that US anti-trust law is so hands off at this point that there's no chance the FTC would do anything substantive here.
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    If you define Twitter’s market as “sites that do things very similarly to Twitter,” I agree they look dominant. I doubt U.S. courts would agree with such a narrow definition, though. Twitter itself doesn’t seem to take that view of its own market, given that Facebook and Instagram are first on the block list—both products of Meta, a competitor with far more eyeballs and revenue than Twitter.
    - wpietri 4y ago
      The FTC themselves say "a product market in an antitrust investigation consists of all goods or services that buyers view as close substitutes". So I don't think it's "do things very similarly to Twitter" as much as it is "serves the same need as Twitter". And as I said, looking at the discussions around leaving Twitter provides plenty of evidence that close substitutes are not available in the view of users.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Twitter is already actively regulated by the FCC and operating under a fairly strict regime.
FinnKuhn 4y ago
Apparently Twitter would likely loose in Germany if this ever gets in front of a court, ironically due to free of opinion -> https://sueden.social/@Anwalt_Jun/109536044985684272 https://sueden.social/@Anwalt_Jun/109536044985684272
- hatenberg 4y ago
  Twitter is bought as a Us elections influence play. The majority of international employees have been laid off and it will be defaulting on its legal obligations in those countries as a result. None of this squares with his proclaimed mission. People need to stop taking Elon at face value and instead look at the actions. He’s just plagiarizing the Trump playbook and got ahead of the biggest flaw Trump had, not having his own platform to continue operating once he got tried his coup.
  - antifanboy 4y ago
    At least elon is foreign born. Good god if he could be elected president I would sirhan the mother fucker myself.
photochemsyn 4y ago
Blocking direct competition is one thing, but what if Twitter starts blocking tweets about VW electric vehicles and promoting tweets about Tesla? It's a very strange setup - although not that different from Bezos' and the Washington Post removing all investigative journalism into the CIA / NSA while AWS seeks large services contracts from those government entities.
- jrmg 4y ago
  Washington Post removing all investigative journalism into the CIA / NSA while AWS seeks large services contracts from those government entities That happened?
  - guelo 4y ago
    No
    - photochemsyn 4y ago
      AWS got $10 billion from the NSA last year. Do you really think Bezos' Washington Post is going to be publishing anything that might derail contracts of that value?
      - codetrotter 4y ago
        Why would NSA stop using AWS just because WaPo wrote something about NSA? It doesn’t make sense, really. Only thing that should really matter to NSA in regards to using AWS is, does AWS offer the products they need, at the price they want to pay.
        photochemsyn 4y ago
        Maybe what matters to NSA bureaucrats making contracting decisions is knowing that Bezos will give them lucrative private sector jobs? Maybe exposing these public-private relationships between black-budget agencies and private tech outfits is something Post editors are now reluctant to examine in any detail? > "Amazon today elected Keith Alexander, a retired four-star general of the U.S. Army, as it newest board director. Alexander was previously director of the National Security Agency and chief of the Central Security Service from 2005 to 2014. (Sep 9, 2020)" Just a coincidence, nothing to see here.
pjc50 4y ago
They'll get back to you in 5 to 7 business years. This will resolve itself one way or the other by then.
seydor 4y ago
aren't they a private company anyway? To claim that they have a dominant position is very ovestated. Twitter is no bigger than reddit.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Twitter has - or rather, had - outside influence compared to Reddit due to the number of professionals in the media using it.
  - seydor 4y ago
    If that was even a valid argument it's extremely undemocratic to silence individual entities because they are influential.
- gtaylor 4y ago
  Twitter is a good deal bigger than reddit. At least pre-Elon. 200MM+ DAU vs 50MM+.
  - seydor 4y ago
    This says they are comparable in # monthly MAUs https://www.statista.com/statistics/272014/global-social-networks-ranked-by-number-of-users/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/272014/global-social-net...
Dreako 4y ago
Instagram doesnt allow links in posts. this isnt a lot different from that imo Twitter honestly isn't big enough for regulators to give a damn, only like 20% of Americans use it monthly
- astrange 4y ago
  This policy also forbids linktree in bio, the thing you’re allowed to do on IG. Twitter is already under an FTC consent decree.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

I have already filed an FTC anti competitive complaint using a Wayback link of the post over coffee this morning. I encourage others to do the same. You don’t need deep pockets, let the executive branch do the work for you. That’s their job. Takes ~5 min. https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/ https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/ If you’re in Europe: https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/procedures/complaints_en https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/procedures...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
class4behavior 4y ago
It may be important to highlight that both this new policy just as Musk's own straight-forward comments have already proven that bird site not only suppressed engagement with but also defamed its competition solely because they are the competition. Especially companies - like the German and Japanese ones running the top 3 instances - or associations have the right to complaint even though Mastodon is not their own brand.

andrew_ 4y ago

Interesting thought. Also curious on consequences.

greatgib 4y ago

Awesome in stupidity, because there is also not a fake good reason like "there are bad content that we don't control there so we want to protect our users" but just "you should stay here and we forbid any link to a platform we don't own". Also that it is not a rule that is there since ever, like apple could have done, but a sudden change after an already controversial situation. It is awesome to see how Elon is behaving like a spoiled kid! I really hope that twitter financial will crash so that he will be ruined and the platform will be sold by the bank he used for the LBO.

MrMan 4y ago
automatic for the people, Tumblr edition
nolok 4y ago
I don't know if it's "the" or "one of the" bank used for the LBO, but my understanding is that Financial has already partially left the building by stopping all their advertising on twitter after musk first week there...

KarlKemp 4y ago

I believe it doesn’t fit the generic laws against anticompetitive practices, mostly because they don’t have dominance in any market. Compare Apple’s iOS stores. There may be something in newer legislation which has made data portability a priority. And Apple has just changed its practice, but due only to very specific pressure. So I’d say this is rather pathetic, but not illegal.

troydavis 4y ago
> mostly because they don’t have dominance in any market. Keep in mind that at least the FTC generally considers a market to be, roughly, goods and services that are close substitutes for one another[1]. That is, if one good or service can be substituted for another, those may be in the same market. However, as the FTC's summary says, "evidence that customers highly value certain product attributes may limit their willingness to substitute other products." The size and breadth of a network is a product attribute that affects a customer's willingness and ability to substitute any other product. For anyone else into this topic, "Antitrust and Social Networking" (2012) is a good place to start: https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=facpubs&httpsredir=1&referer= https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188... (PDF). [1]: https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/mergers/markets https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...
- KarlKemp 4y ago
  Twitter’s inclusion of Facebook points to the idea that they consider it a competitor, and would be one far larger.
  - ummonk 4y ago
    That doesn't mean Facebook is a substitute for Twitter (it obviously isn't).

TigeriusKirk 4y ago

I suspect this would factor heavily into any such concern- "Additionally, we allow paid advertisement/promotion for any of the prohibited social media platforms."

tedunangst 4y ago
Except that's not true. > They said they allow you to pay to promote links to other platform, but considering how it was immediately reject from promotion it seems that automation is being used to make that line a... uhhh... total lie. https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1604538254795198465 https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1604538254795198465

snowwrestler 4y ago

I don’t see how this is a legal problem for Twitter, at least in the U.S. They are not a dominant force on the Web or even in social media; they have little market power. And any data that shows lots of people leaving for other social media platforms would actually help prove that competition is strong (ironically). Free speech cuts both ways. It’s legal for Twitter to block links to Mastodon for the same reason it was legal for them to block the sitting U.S. President from posting.

wpietri 4y ago
Yes and no. Twitter is dominant for their slice of social media, as demonstrated by the fact that a lot of the people who think about leaving don't see viable alternatives. But I agree that US anti-trust law is so hands off at this point that there's no chance the FTC would do anything substantive here.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  If you define Twitter’s market as “sites that do things very similarly to Twitter,” I agree they look dominant. I doubt U.S. courts would agree with such a narrow definition, though. Twitter itself doesn’t seem to take that view of its own market, given that Facebook and Instagram are first on the block list—both products of Meta, a competitor with far more eyeballs and revenue than Twitter.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    The FTC themselves say "a product market in an antitrust investigation consists of all goods or services that buyers view as close substitutes". So I don't think it's "do things very similarly to Twitter" as much as it is "serves the same need as Twitter". And as I said, looking at the discussions around leaving Twitter provides plenty of evidence that close substitutes are not available in the view of users.
jacquesm 4y ago
Twitter is already actively regulated by the FCC and operating under a fairly strict regime.

FinnKuhn 4y ago

Apparently Twitter would likely loose in Germany if this ever gets in front of a court, ironically due to free of opinion -> https://sueden.social/@Anwalt_Jun/109536044985684272 https://sueden.social/@Anwalt_Jun/109536044985684272

hatenberg 4y ago
Twitter is bought as a Us elections influence play. The majority of international employees have been laid off and it will be defaulting on its legal obligations in those countries as a result. None of this squares with his proclaimed mission. People need to stop taking Elon at face value and instead look at the actions. He’s just plagiarizing the Trump playbook and got ahead of the biggest flaw Trump had, not having his own platform to continue operating once he got tried his coup.
- antifanboy 4y ago
  At least elon is foreign born. Good god if he could be elected president I would sirhan the mother fucker myself.

photochemsyn 4y ago

Blocking direct competition is one thing, but what if Twitter starts blocking tweets about VW electric vehicles and promoting tweets about Tesla? It's a very strange setup - although not that different from Bezos' and the Washington Post removing all investigative journalism into the CIA / NSA while AWS seeks large services contracts from those government entities.

jrmg 4y ago
Washington Post removing all investigative journalism into the CIA / NSA while AWS seeks large services contracts from those government entities That happened?
- guelo 4y ago
  No
  - photochemsyn 4y ago
    AWS got $10 billion from the NSA last year. Do you really think Bezos' Washington Post is going to be publishing anything that might derail contracts of that value?
    - codetrotter 4y ago
      Why would NSA stop using AWS just because WaPo wrote something about NSA? It doesn’t make sense, really. Only thing that should really matter to NSA in regards to using AWS is, does AWS offer the products they need, at the price they want to pay.
      - photochemsyn 4y ago
        Maybe what matters to NSA bureaucrats making contracting decisions is knowing that Bezos will give them lucrative private sector jobs? Maybe exposing these public-private relationships between black-budget agencies and private tech outfits is something Post editors are now reluctant to examine in any detail? > "Amazon today elected Keith Alexander, a retired four-star general of the U.S. Army, as it newest board director. Alexander was previously director of the National Security Agency and chief of the Central Security Service from 2005 to 2014. (Sep 9, 2020)" Just a coincidence, nothing to see here.

pjc50 4y ago

They'll get back to you in 5 to 7 business years. This will resolve itself one way or the other by then.

seydor 4y ago

aren't they a private company anyway? To claim that they have a dominant position is very ovestated. Twitter is no bigger than reddit.

jacquesm 4y ago
Twitter has - or rather, had - outside influence compared to Reddit due to the number of professionals in the media using it.
- seydor 4y ago
  If that was even a valid argument it's extremely undemocratic to silence individual entities because they are influential.
gtaylor 4y ago
Twitter is a good deal bigger than reddit. At least pre-Elon. 200MM+ DAU vs 50MM+.
- seydor 4y ago
  This says they are comparable in # monthly MAUs https://www.statista.com/statistics/272014/global-social-networks-ranked-by-number-of-users/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/272014/global-social-net...

Dreako 4y ago

Instagram doesnt allow links in posts. this isnt a lot different from that imo Twitter honestly isn't big enough for regulators to give a damn, only like 20% of Americans use it monthly

astrange 4y ago
This policy also forbids linktree in bio, the thing you’re allowed to do on IG. Twitter is already under an FTC consent decree.