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You can export your data and move it to another server. If you're banned on Twitter, you're done. Also, complete failures like banning important stories, banni

You can export your data and move it to another server. If you're banned on Twitter, you're done. Also, complete failures like banning important stories, banning presidents, banning journalists etc. cannot happen on Mastodon the same way that it has happened countless of times on Twitter and will continue happening. Mastodon is obviously superior when it comes to the freedom of speech. Elon is afraid, because he knows. Funnily enough, he is the reason why we will get the better version of social media faster.

drexlspivey 4y ago
What if your server that is run by a hobbyist suddenly shuts down without any notice? If they had an accident for example or they got hacked or whatever
- rcade 4y ago
  Most instances follow the Mastodon Covenant, whose promises include giving users three months warning before a shutdown. https://joinmastodon.org/covenant https://joinmastodon.org/covenant
- vidarh 4y ago
  If you're concerned about that, back up regularly, or pick an instance not run by a hobbyist, or run your own, or pay one of the commercial hosters to do it for you.
  - codeflo 4y ago
    I love the moving of goalposts that's happening here. "Just pick a server", "you can always migrate" moves to "you can always migrate if you happened to have picked a server not run by a hobbyist". Which, BTW, isn't even a filter criterion on the often linked instances.social. Also, you can't back up your followers.
    - weinzierl 4y ago
      You can't back up your followers, but as long as the old instance exits, is not banned and is cooperative you can move your followers from one instance to another. Yes, that's a lot of "ifs" and doesn't help at all if the instance you are on is already defederated, which was the point that started this thread. I think Mastodon is a tiny bit better than Twitter in that, at least you have a chance to move as long as things are good. If that makes a practical difference, I don 't know...
      - vidarh 4y ago
        I have moved instances, so it made a practical difference to me. I also follow a lot of people who have moved instances and in all cases I only noticed because they posted about it (and hence there are probably more who have moved that I didn't notice). It needs improvements, such as the ability to move in spite of the old server (the ability to get at your private key so you or the new server can sign an assertion about the move with the old accounts key would be one option which would at least give people the choice of being prepared), and moving over the old posts (there are some stupid concerns about "faking timelines" which you can trivially do anyway, so I think this is a question of time to resolve that - it's not technically hard), but it already does offer significantly more freedom than Twitter.
    - vidarh 4y ago
      > I love the moving of goalposts that's happening here. "Just pick a server", "you can always migrate" moves to "you can always migrate if you happened to have picked a server not run by a hobbyist". There's no moving on goalposts here. I have not replied to you suggesting anything less than this previously, so there were no goalposts for me to move. > Which, BTW, isn't even a filter criterion on the often linked instances.social. So don't rely on instances.social if that is a consideration for you. If this matters to you, do your research. Joinmastodon.org does have a filter for "legal structure", but if you care about that you really should read the about page of your prospective server. Or run or pay for your own. I simply provided you with a list of options if this is a consideration for you. It's your choice whether or not any of those options works for you. > Also, you can't back up your followers. Yes you can, though not from the default Mastodon UI. In fact anyone can download your followers list as JSON. What you can't do without support from the original server is to cause your followers to refollow you on the new account, and that is indeed a legitimate flaw that I'd like to see fixed (and it's doable - there are key-pairs associated with the accounts which would allow for signing an assertion about the account moving, and while the server need to have a copy of the main private key there's no reason for users not to be able to get a copy of it). It probably will be - the entire account move functionality is quite new and needs iteration.
- weinzierl 4y ago
  If you have exported you data from the instance you should be able to set up your own instance with that data.
- yardie 4y ago
  Well that sucks. But commercially businesses fail all the time. Sometimes you get a heads up and can plan accordingly. And other times it’s like FTX and the site is down the next day, after a major scandal. The only thing you can do is own your data, running on servers you own, at a domain you own. The internet owes you nothing.
  - drexlspivey 4y ago
    > The only thing you can do is own your data, running on servers you own, at a domain you own. No, that’s a failure of the specific protocol. Your identity could simply be a public key. This way it’s: 1) Tamperproof 2) Not dependant on any specific server
    - danaris 4y ago
      If your identity is "simply" a public key, then...how does anyone actually refer to you? By a handle? That's not part of a public key. An avatar? I guess you could generate one à la Gravatar from a public key, but those aren't going to be very memorable. A public key is a way to securely and uniquely say "this is me". It says nothing about who you are, anything about you, what you like or do, your links to other people, or anything like that. All that information has to be stored somewhere.
      - notpushkin 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle
gebruikersnaam 4y ago
Note: if the server you're on is banned, you won't be able to move to a different server.
- vidarh 4y ago
  There is no "global ban" for servers. You won't be able to move to a server that has defederated the server you're moving to or been defederated by it. But you can still move to a third party server. If you desperately want to move from A to B and A and B are defederated from each other, you can even do that by moving from A to C and C to A as long as both A and B are willing to talk to C.
- weinzierl 4y ago
  I don't know if I understood you correctly, but I don't think this is true. I have not tried it but as long as you have your data you can always setup your own instance with it. Ideally you have a server backup but if not there is a script that can convert the ordinary Mastodon export (the one you can do as a regular user in the UI of any instance) into a form suitable to import into the database of your instance.
  - codeflo 4y ago
    You can't migrate your followers that way, can you? Which is (arguably) for many people more important than the content of their posts.
    - dividedbyzero 4y ago
      For everyone doing social media (semi-)professionally, followers are pretty much all that matters. That sounds like it gives server operators leverage against journalists and the like that happen to be on their server. They can move server, sure, but they lose their reach, that's ugly especially for smaller publications or individuals who can't easily hire staff to run their own instance.
    - weinzierl 4y ago
      I haven't thought this through thoroughly yet, but I could not come up with a migration scenario where you could keep your followers. Your handle will change and as long as the old instance is banned I guess a redirect from there to the new handle does not work. So, fair point! I'd be curious what others think, maybe there is a way?

drexlspivey 4y ago

What if your server that is run by a hobbyist suddenly shuts down without any notice? If they had an accident for example or they got hacked or whatever

rcade 4y ago
Most instances follow the Mastodon Covenant, whose promises include giving users three months warning before a shutdown. https://joinmastodon.org/covenant https://joinmastodon.org/covenant
vidarh 4y ago
If you're concerned about that, back up regularly, or pick an instance not run by a hobbyist, or run your own, or pay one of the commercial hosters to do it for you.
- codeflo 4y ago
  I love the moving of goalposts that's happening here. "Just pick a server", "you can always migrate" moves to "you can always migrate if you happened to have picked a server not run by a hobbyist". Which, BTW, isn't even a filter criterion on the often linked instances.social. Also, you can't back up your followers.
  - weinzierl 4y ago
    You can't back up your followers, but as long as the old instance exits, is not banned and is cooperative you can move your followers from one instance to another. Yes, that's a lot of "ifs" and doesn't help at all if the instance you are on is already defederated, which was the point that started this thread. I think Mastodon is a tiny bit better than Twitter in that, at least you have a chance to move as long as things are good. If that makes a practical difference, I don 't know...
    - vidarh 4y ago
      I have moved instances, so it made a practical difference to me. I also follow a lot of people who have moved instances and in all cases I only noticed because they posted about it (and hence there are probably more who have moved that I didn't notice). It needs improvements, such as the ability to move in spite of the old server (the ability to get at your private key so you or the new server can sign an assertion about the move with the old accounts key would be one option which would at least give people the choice of being prepared), and moving over the old posts (there are some stupid concerns about "faking timelines" which you can trivially do anyway, so I think this is a question of time to resolve that - it's not technically hard), but it already does offer significantly more freedom than Twitter.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    > I love the moving of goalposts that's happening here. "Just pick a server", "you can always migrate" moves to "you can always migrate if you happened to have picked a server not run by a hobbyist". There's no moving on goalposts here. I have not replied to you suggesting anything less than this previously, so there were no goalposts for me to move. > Which, BTW, isn't even a filter criterion on the often linked instances.social. So don't rely on instances.social if that is a consideration for you. If this matters to you, do your research. Joinmastodon.org does have a filter for "legal structure", but if you care about that you really should read the about page of your prospective server. Or run or pay for your own. I simply provided you with a list of options if this is a consideration for you. It's your choice whether or not any of those options works for you. > Also, you can't back up your followers. Yes you can, though not from the default Mastodon UI. In fact anyone can download your followers list as JSON. What you can't do without support from the original server is to cause your followers to refollow you on the new account, and that is indeed a legitimate flaw that I'd like to see fixed (and it's doable - there are key-pairs associated with the accounts which would allow for signing an assertion about the account moving, and while the server need to have a copy of the main private key there's no reason for users not to be able to get a copy of it). It probably will be - the entire account move functionality is quite new and needs iteration.
weinzierl 4y ago
If you have exported you data from the instance you should be able to set up your own instance with that data.
yardie 4y ago
Well that sucks. But commercially businesses fail all the time. Sometimes you get a heads up and can plan accordingly. And other times it’s like FTX and the site is down the next day, after a major scandal. The only thing you can do is own your data, running on servers you own, at a domain you own. The internet owes you nothing.
- drexlspivey 4y ago
  > The only thing you can do is own your data, running on servers you own, at a domain you own. No, that’s a failure of the specific protocol. Your identity could simply be a public key. This way it’s: 1) Tamperproof 2) Not dependant on any specific server
  - danaris 4y ago
    If your identity is "simply" a public key, then...how does anyone actually refer to you? By a handle? That's not part of a public key. An avatar? I guess you could generate one à la Gravatar from a public key, but those aren't going to be very memorable. A public key is a way to securely and uniquely say "this is me". It says nothing about who you are, anything about you, what you like or do, your links to other people, or anything like that. All that information has to be stored somewhere.
    - notpushkin 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle

gebruikersnaam 4y ago

Note: if the server you're on is banned, you won't be able to move to a different server.

vidarh 4y ago
There is no "global ban" for servers. You won't be able to move to a server that has defederated the server you're moving to or been defederated by it. But you can still move to a third party server. If you desperately want to move from A to B and A and B are defederated from each other, you can even do that by moving from A to C and C to A as long as both A and B are willing to talk to C.
weinzierl 4y ago
I don't know if I understood you correctly, but I don't think this is true. I have not tried it but as long as you have your data you can always setup your own instance with it. Ideally you have a server backup but if not there is a script that can convert the ordinary Mastodon export (the one you can do as a regular user in the UI of any instance) into a form suitable to import into the database of your instance.
- codeflo 4y ago
  You can't migrate your followers that way, can you? Which is (arguably) for many people more important than the content of their posts.
  - dividedbyzero 4y ago
    For everyone doing social media (semi-)professionally, followers are pretty much all that matters. That sounds like it gives server operators leverage against journalists and the like that happen to be on their server. They can move server, sure, but they lose their reach, that's ugly especially for smaller publications or individuals who can't easily hire staff to run their own instance.
  - weinzierl 4y ago
    I haven't thought this through thoroughly yet, but I could not come up with a migration scenario where you could keep your followers. Your handle will change and as long as the old instance is banned I guess a redirect from there to the new handle does not work. So, fair point! I'd be curious what others think, maybe there is a way?