5 ms·

You're describing a bargaining power that unions have, except instead of "pay me or I leave" it's "pay me or we leave". Why would you want a less powerful vers

You're describing a bargaining power that unions have, except instead of "pay me or I leave" it's "pay me or we leave". Why would you want a less powerful version of the same thing? Even if you don't involve your union, you can still do what you're describing. You've gained nothing unique by avoiding the union.

credit_guy 4y ago
> you can still do what you're describing. I doubt you can. Your boss will tell you he can't pay you more than what's on the grid negotiated with the union. My wife works in a place with a union (and is a member of it), and there is such a grid. Nobody even thinks individual bargaining is a possibility.
- krainboltgreene 4y ago
  So you leave, like you said.
  - credit_guy 4y ago
    "Pay me or I leave" is bargaining. "I leave" is not bargaining.
    - krainboltgreene 4y ago
      I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, we are directly talking about a scenario where a worker says "pay me more or I leave" and the company says "Our union doesn't want nonmembers to be paid more" or "We can't pay you more because of the union" and you're telling me "then leaving" is not bargaining.
      - credit_guy 4y ago
        I go to a store and I tell them I want to buy item X, but the price is too high. If they don't want to lower the price, I'll go somewhere else. They say they can't change the posted price. I leave the store. Do you call that bargaining? If you do, you have a very peculiar definition of the word.
        krainboltgreene 4y ago
        Yes, because it is bargaining. You offered an agreement: You stay and work, they pay more. The alternative is leave. They chose for you to leave.
        credit_guy 4y ago
        It is not bargaining if you can't possibly get what you want. If you are in a union shop, you can't get paid more than what's on the grid. If you want more, you need to resign and get somewhere else. But don't pretend you have a choice to do "individual bargaining". Unions eliminate the individual bargaining power of people. Except, of course, if we choose to use your definition, and call resigning and moving to another job "bargaining".
        krainboltgreene 4y ago
        They chose the union rules over giving you individually more money. There was a choice. You not liking their choice doesn't mean there was no choice. Just join the union, you'll get paid more anyways.
        credit_guy 4y ago
        Your argument was that the union gives you more power via the collective bargaining, but that you still retain your individual bargaining power. You don't. If you were to come to my company and try to convince me to start a union, I'd say "thanks, but no thanks". Just now, you are trying to convince me that I'd be retaining my individual bargaining power, if I accept to use a different definition. Well, I was born in a Communist country, where they were fond of changing definitions. We were free to vote for whomever we wanted, as long as it was someone on the list presented to us. We had no say in who was on that list. Of course, we were free to not vote at all, right? Boys had to do mandatory military service. You know how they were called when they were conscripted? "Volunteers". That was the official name. So, yes, I'm used to the tactic of changing definitions. But if you are serious about presenting an argument, you should no use this tactic.

credit_guy 4y ago

> you can still do what you're describing. I doubt you can. Your boss will tell you he can't pay you more than what's on the grid negotiated with the union. My wife works in a place with a union (and is a member of it), and there is such a grid. Nobody even thinks individual bargaining is a possibility.

krainboltgreene 4y ago
So you leave, like you said.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  "Pay me or I leave" is bargaining. "I leave" is not bargaining.
  - krainboltgreene 4y ago
    I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, we are directly talking about a scenario where a worker says "pay me more or I leave" and the company says "Our union doesn't want nonmembers to be paid more" or "We can't pay you more because of the union" and you're telling me "then leaving" is not bargaining.
    - credit_guy 4y ago
      I go to a store and I tell them I want to buy item X, but the price is too high. If they don't want to lower the price, I'll go somewhere else. They say they can't change the posted price. I leave the store. Do you call that bargaining? If you do, you have a very peculiar definition of the word.
      - krainboltgreene 4y ago
        Yes, because it is bargaining. You offered an agreement: You stay and work, they pay more. The alternative is leave. They chose for you to leave.
        credit_guy 4y ago
        It is not bargaining if you can't possibly get what you want. If you are in a union shop, you can't get paid more than what's on the grid. If you want more, you need to resign and get somewhere else. But don't pretend you have a choice to do "individual bargaining". Unions eliminate the individual bargaining power of people. Except, of course, if we choose to use your definition, and call resigning and moving to another job "bargaining".
        krainboltgreene 4y ago
        They chose the union rules over giving you individually more money. There was a choice. You not liking their choice doesn't mean there was no choice. Just join the union, you'll get paid more anyways.
        credit_guy 4y ago
        Your argument was that the union gives you more power via the collective bargaining, but that you still retain your individual bargaining power. You don't. If you were to come to my company and try to convince me to start a union, I'd say "thanks, but no thanks". Just now, you are trying to convince me that I'd be retaining my individual bargaining power, if I accept to use a different definition. Well, I was born in a Communist country, where they were fond of changing definitions. We were free to vote for whomever we wanted, as long as it was someone on the list presented to us. We had no say in who was on that list. Of course, we were free to not vote at all, right? Boys had to do mandatory military service. You know how they were called when they were conscripted? "Volunteers". That was the official name. So, yes, I'm used to the tactic of changing definitions. But if you are serious about presenting an argument, you should no use this tactic.