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What's the alternative? I mean so far, the only country who has actually been found spying on its allies has been the US. So it seems like it's all upside?

tick_tock_tick 4y ago
I mean Germany actively has the USA spy on German citizens for them. The last issue wasn't that the USA was doing it but rather "privileged" German citizen who weren't supposed to be on the spy list got on it.
industriespion 4y ago
Isn’t China pretty well known for their industrial espionage and totalitarian social-credit system? Look I love a good Obama / Merkel scandal meme but “US is the only one” is just so absurdly ignorant.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > totalitarian social-credit system The "Social Credit System" is a myth that just won't die, no matter how many times it's debunked. Go to China and ask people about their social credit scores. They'll have no idea what you're talking about. No such system of scoring individuals exists. The actual social credit system is for regulating businesses, and it's actually incredibly boring.
KMag 4y ago
This isn't remotely true, for instance: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oh-by-the-way-germany-spi_b_4184047 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oh-by-the-way-germany-spi_b_4... I also vaguely remember a 60 Minutes piece in the late 80s or early 90s about West Germans fulfilling their mandatory military service obligations by coming to the US and committing industrial espionage. Well before the US got caught, it was well known that the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have a mutual non-spying pact... and Germany knew it wasn't in on such a pact. It's well known that in the absence of non-spying agreements, spying is considered fair game. After Germany caught the US spying, did Germany demand its own mutual non-spying pact with the US? I'm not aware of any such public demands, but maybe I just missed them. If no demands were made, then presumably Germany was less shocked and less hurt than it let on. It probably turns out that, like most allies around the world, the US and Germany generally trust each other, but not to such a high degree that they're willing to give up the ability to check on each other now and then.
- sschueller 4y ago
  There are 50k US troops on German soil. How much push back can Germany enact? It also is extremely dependent on the US for NATO.

tick_tock_tick 4y ago

I mean Germany actively has the USA spy on German citizens for them. The last issue wasn't that the USA was doing it but rather "privileged" German citizen who weren't supposed to be on the spy list got on it.

industriespion 4y ago

Isn’t China pretty well known for their industrial espionage and totalitarian social-credit system? Look I love a good Obama / Merkel scandal meme but “US is the only one” is just so absurdly ignorant.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
> totalitarian social-credit system The "Social Credit System" is a myth that just won't die, no matter how many times it's debunked. Go to China and ask people about their social credit scores. They'll have no idea what you're talking about. No such system of scoring individuals exists. The actual social credit system is for regulating businesses, and it's actually incredibly boring.

KMag 4y ago

This isn't remotely true, for instance: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oh-by-the-way-germany-spi_b_4184047 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oh-by-the-way-germany-spi_b_4... I also vaguely remember a 60 Minutes piece in the late 80s or early 90s about West Germans fulfilling their mandatory military service obligations by coming to the US and committing industrial espionage. Well before the US got caught, it was well known that the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have a mutual non-spying pact... and Germany knew it wasn't in on such a pact. It's well known that in the absence of non-spying agreements, spying is considered fair game. After Germany caught the US spying, did Germany demand its own mutual non-spying pact with the US? I'm not aware of any such public demands, but maybe I just missed them. If no demands were made, then presumably Germany was less shocked and less hurt than it let on. It probably turns out that, like most allies around the world, the US and Germany generally trust each other, but not to such a high degree that they're willing to give up the ability to check on each other now and then.

sschueller 4y ago
There are 50k US troops on German soil. How much push back can Germany enact? It also is extremely dependent on the US for NATO.