4 ms·

Proportional representation also has its problems. Look at the Netherlands, which has 17 different parties in parliament and led to it becoming increasingly dif

by gman83 4y ago

Proportional representation also has its problems. Look at the Netherlands, which has 17 different parties in parliament and led to it becoming increasingly difficult to form coalitions, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%932022_Dutch_cabinet_formation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%932022_Dutch_cabine...

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
Yes voters should just buckle down and vote for a big left/right party. Voters are getting too much democracy for their own good!
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  Agree. Look at democracies where two parties dominate. The choices look awful. Where is the center represented in UK and US?
  - jen20 4y ago
    The center is represented in the UK by Labour, and by the Democrats in the US. The left is not represented in either country.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
      In reality we don't really know where center lies in either country given the circumstance.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      The “center” or “left” of what? The US is a country that’s as religious as Iran where a decisive majority disapprove of the Supreme Court’s ban on school prayer: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/13/south-carolina-valedictorian-reignites-debate-on-prayer-in-school https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/13/south-carol.... It’s a country where 68% of Americans wouldn’t pay even $10 per month in energy bills to mitigate climate change: https://www.cato.org/blog/68-americans-wouldnt-pay-10-month-higher-electric-bills-combat-climate-change https://www.cato.org/blog/68-americans-wouldnt-pay-10-month-... You might not approve of where the “center” is in the US, but Democrats absolutely represent the center left and republicans represent the center right of the actual American electorate.
      - reducesuffering 4y ago
        Yes, but since the US is a more right-wing country than the rest of the developed world (healthcare, death penalty, taxes...), that would mean the Democrats are "centrist" and Republicans "right." Characterizing based on relativity to the developed world seems much more fitting, since we're discussing it between people mostly from other developed countries and in a thread about Britain.
        refurb 4y ago
        Right wing on what measure? With abortion restrictions in Europe, Europe looks further right than the US or Canada on that issue.
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        By all three measures I mentioned above? When it comes to abortion, it's more of a wash. By one measure, US is now more decentralized, less federal gov., thus more right wing. 13 US states have complete elective abortion bans at all times, thus much more right wing. Most other US states have somewhat more lenient abortion laws, roughly ~6 weeks longer in general, thus more left wing. If that's your best and only example, it only substantiates my case.
        refurb 4y ago
        And Canada has no restrictions whatsoever on abortion. Now do attitudes towards immigration and multiculturalism. I’d argue Canada and the US are more “left” of Europe on that issue as well.
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        You brought up Canada, Canada being more left than US just furthers my point that US is more to the right than over developed countries. As to comparing European countries to the US on immigration; % of immigrants in the country Switzerland: 29% Sweden: 20% Germany: 19% Austria: 19% Ireland: 18% Belgium: 17% Norway: 16% Spain 15% *US: 15% Netherlands: 14% UK: 14% France: 13% Denmark: 12% Italy: 11% US doesn't seem like any sort of above-average on your chosen metric either... https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati...
  - refurb 4y ago
    The Democrats and Republicans already represent a range of the political spectrum, they aren’t monolithic. And the US isn’t a Parliamentary democracy, so Congresspeople don’t have to vote along party lines (and often don’t).
throwaway2037 4y ago
I'm confused when you wrote "becoming increasingly difficult to form coalitions". Mark Rutte has been PM since 2010. Wiki says: "On 2 August 2022, he became the longest-serving Prime Minister in Dutch history..." Without specific examples that demonstrate a trend, the term "increasingly difficult" is editorial-speak. Also, look at NL economy for last 30 years. Looks pretty good compared to any other highly developed country. That is very difficult to do without a high functioning govt.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  Yes politics is irrelevant what makes the Netherlands one of the best places to live is and always has been the economy. Revolution happens when the bread runs out.
vidarh 4y ago
If that is what voters want, that is what voters should get. Depriving voters of freedom to be represented the way they want because you don't like the outcome is fundamentally undemocratic.

by gman83 4y ago

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago

Yes voters should just buckle down and vote for a big left/right party. Voters are getting too much democracy for their own good!

throwaway2037 4y ago
Agree. Look at democracies where two parties dominate. The choices look awful. Where is the center represented in UK and US?
- jen20 4y ago
  The center is represented in the UK by Labour, and by the Democrats in the US. The left is not represented in either country.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
    In reality we don't really know where center lies in either country given the circumstance.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    The “center” or “left” of what? The US is a country that’s as religious as Iran where a decisive majority disapprove of the Supreme Court’s ban on school prayer: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/13/south-carolina-valedictorian-reignites-debate-on-prayer-in-school https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/13/south-carol.... It’s a country where 68% of Americans wouldn’t pay even $10 per month in energy bills to mitigate climate change: https://www.cato.org/blog/68-americans-wouldnt-pay-10-month-higher-electric-bills-combat-climate-change https://www.cato.org/blog/68-americans-wouldnt-pay-10-month-... You might not approve of where the “center” is in the US, but Democrats absolutely represent the center left and republicans represent the center right of the actual American electorate.
    - reducesuffering 4y ago
      Yes, but since the US is a more right-wing country than the rest of the developed world (healthcare, death penalty, taxes...), that would mean the Democrats are "centrist" and Republicans "right." Characterizing based on relativity to the developed world seems much more fitting, since we're discussing it between people mostly from other developed countries and in a thread about Britain.
      - refurb 4y ago
        Right wing on what measure? With abortion restrictions in Europe, Europe looks further right than the US or Canada on that issue.
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        By all three measures I mentioned above? When it comes to abortion, it's more of a wash. By one measure, US is now more decentralized, less federal gov., thus more right wing. 13 US states have complete elective abortion bans at all times, thus much more right wing. Most other US states have somewhat more lenient abortion laws, roughly ~6 weeks longer in general, thus more left wing. If that's your best and only example, it only substantiates my case.
        refurb 4y ago
        And Canada has no restrictions whatsoever on abortion. Now do attitudes towards immigration and multiculturalism. I’d argue Canada and the US are more “left” of Europe on that issue as well.
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        You brought up Canada, Canada being more left than US just furthers my point that US is more to the right than over developed countries. As to comparing European countries to the US on immigration; % of immigrants in the country Switzerland: 29% Sweden: 20% Germany: 19% Austria: 19% Ireland: 18% Belgium: 17% Norway: 16% Spain 15% *US: 15% Netherlands: 14% UK: 14% France: 13% Denmark: 12% Italy: 11% US doesn't seem like any sort of above-average on your chosen metric either... https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati...
- refurb 4y ago
  The Democrats and Republicans already represent a range of the political spectrum, they aren’t monolithic. And the US isn’t a Parliamentary democracy, so Congresspeople don’t have to vote along party lines (and often don’t).

throwaway2037 4y ago

I'm confused when you wrote "becoming increasingly difficult to form coalitions". Mark Rutte has been PM since 2010. Wiki says: "On 2 August 2022, he became the longest-serving Prime Minister in Dutch history..." Without specific examples that demonstrate a trend, the term "increasingly difficult" is editorial-speak. Also, look at NL economy for last 30 years. Looks pretty good compared to any other highly developed country. That is very difficult to do without a high functioning govt.

WeylandYutani 4y ago
Yes politics is irrelevant what makes the Netherlands one of the best places to live is and always has been the economy. Revolution happens when the bread runs out.

vidarh 4y ago

If that is what voters want, that is what voters should get. Depriving voters of freedom to be represented the way they want because you don't like the outcome is fundamentally undemocratic.