4 ms·

"democracy is under threat when people I don't like are democratically elected." Is it invisible to you how such statements are, themselves, bad for democracy?

by mjfl 4y ago

Silhouette 4y ago
The problem is that in many Western systems the people who gain power aren't democratically elected. In a real democracy the big challenge should be how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. However most of us aren't even getting that far because the people who gain power often don't even have the support or even acceptance of the majority.
- gernb 4y ago
  You said > In a real democracy the big challenge should be how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority But isn't that exactly what's happening? The minority (red) won against the majority (blue).
  - kibwen 4y ago
    The grandparent is simplifying. The goal of a democracy is to respect the will of the majority while respecting the fundamental rights of the minority. If you're not doing the first step, respecting the will of the majority, then your democracy has already failed. A tyranny of the minority is strictly worse than a tyranny of the majority.
    - mathnmusic 4y ago
      > A tyranny of the minority is strictly worse than a tyranny of the majority. Not if the minority opinion is right. The ground truth matters.
      - kibwen 4y ago
        Okay, how do you decide which opinion is right? Perhaps we'll... vote on it? You do see the problem here, yes?
      - Silhouette 4y ago
        We're talking about politics and democracy here. People will always have a diverse range of opinions on political issues where none of those opinions is objectively "right". Hopefully one opinion that most would agree on is that in matters of fact any competent representative should pay attention to the knowledge and advice of experts.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        The whole point of democracy is that we don’t agree on what’s “the truth” and who is “right” and need a process for deciding what to do notwithstanding those disagreements.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 4y ago
  > In a real democracy the big challenge should be how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. Protection of minorities has nothing to do with democracy, and is often anti-Democratic. In the west, minorities are increasingly being invoked by elites as pretexts for strengthening anti-Democratic institutions and overruling majorities.
  - Silhouette 4y ago
    Protection of minorities has nothing to do with democracy, and is often anti-Democratic. Exactly. And that means protecting minorities from abuse - particularly abuse caused by short-term or ill-informed policy making by politicians - is the big challenge facing any political system based on representative democracy. But before you can get that far you first need to have your representatives democratically elected in the first place and most of us don't right now. In the west, minorities are increasingly being invoked by elites as pretexts for strengthening anti-Democratic institutions and overruling majorities. Careful. Relatively few policies implemented by Western governments actually have a clear, verifiable majority of the public in support of them. For that you essentially need either a referendum or a clear result electing representatives on an explicit platform of implementing that policy and where that policy is known to be the deciding factor in voters' choice of representative. For everything else in a representative democracy we elect our representatives usually based on some very narrow set of priorities and yet those representatives are entrusted with deciding on any government policy that requires a decision throughout their term of office. There is a very long tail of minor issues that can still profoundly affect the lives of many people yet where the representatives making the decisions certainly were not elected based on their position on those particular issues. Even on major issues situations will inevitably change during the term of office of elected representatives and their response to any emergency was almost certainly not something voters had an opportunity to consider before making their choice at the last election. Representative democracy has obvious practical advantages over requiring direct democracy for every little decision any government ever makes but it also implies limitations on the democratic mandate granted to representatives and by extension on the legitimacy of any actions those representatives take on behalf of their electorate. Strong checks and balances are essential to keep representative democracy democratic. One common safeguard is to have constitutional rules about the most important policies where the powers of any current representatives to act in those areas are limited without going back to their electorate for a specific decision to change the foundational rules. Another is having a power of recall so that if the voters who elected a representative are unhappy with their actions then they can require a fresh election that might choose a different representative instead. Crucially both of those safeguards ultimately depend on an explicit decision by the entire electorate, which can and should be more powerful in a democracy than any decision by elected representatives.
rconti 4y ago
"democracy is under threat when people ~I don't like~ who advocate the overturn of democracy are elected" FTFY.
- refurb 4y ago
  You include Hilary Clinton in that? When she called Trump an “illegitimate president”?
  - weard_beard 4y ago
    We treat speech differently based on context. Yelling fire in the middle of the ocean with no one around is legally distinct from yelling fire in a crowded theater. I would argue that without the intent or ability to act in a dangerous manner that this speech is legally distinct from the same statement with those qualifiers. The realities of limited resources in our judicial system and common sense require us to make these distinctions. The difference here, in my mind, is that Hillary Clinton was not able or intending to spur a grassroots coup that was dangerous to our Democracy based on her statements.
    - refurb 4y ago
      Why do you read Hilary’s comments in the best possible light and Trump’s in the worst? Why the double standard? Either calling into question our electoral system is ok or not ok. It’s important we hold all people accountable equally.
- mjfl 4y ago
  You really are not grasping how ubiquitously this concept is used. Biden has declared democratically elected people like Georgia Meloni and Victor Orban, and candidates like Marine le Pen to be dangers to democracy. It certainly isn't restricted to Trump. The fact that you jump to him shows how blind you are.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    Democratically elected people can absolutely be a danger to democracy. I remember when Russia democratically elected Putin. In 5 years, all opposition TV channels were owned by the government and the oligarchs that chose subserviency over prison. In 10 years, elections were so blatantly fraudulent that voting became pointless.

"democracy is under threat when people I don't like are democratically elected." Is it invisible to you how such statements are, themselves, bad for democracy?

by mjfl 4y ago

"democracy is under threat when people I don't like are democratically elected." Is it invisible to you how such statements are, themselves, bad for democracy?

Silhouette 4y ago

The problem is that in many Western systems the people who gain power aren't democratically elected. In a real democracy the big challenge should be how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. However most of us aren't even getting that far because the people who gain power often don't even have the support or even acceptance of the majority.

gernb 4y ago
You said > In a real democracy the big challenge should be how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority But isn't that exactly what's happening? The minority (red) won against the majority (blue).
- kibwen 4y ago
  The grandparent is simplifying. The goal of a democracy is to respect the will of the majority while respecting the fundamental rights of the minority. If you're not doing the first step, respecting the will of the majority, then your democracy has already failed. A tyranny of the minority is strictly worse than a tyranny of the majority.
  - mathnmusic 4y ago
    > A tyranny of the minority is strictly worse than a tyranny of the majority. Not if the minority opinion is right. The ground truth matters.
    - kibwen 4y ago
      Okay, how do you decide which opinion is right? Perhaps we'll... vote on it? You do see the problem here, yes?
    - Silhouette 4y ago
      We're talking about politics and democracy here. People will always have a diverse range of opinions on political issues where none of those opinions is objectively "right". Hopefully one opinion that most would agree on is that in matters of fact any competent representative should pay attention to the knowledge and advice of experts.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      The whole point of democracy is that we don’t agree on what’s “the truth” and who is “right” and need a process for deciding what to do notwithstanding those disagreements.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 4y ago
> In a real democracy the big challenge should be how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. Protection of minorities has nothing to do with democracy, and is often anti-Democratic. In the west, minorities are increasingly being invoked by elites as pretexts for strengthening anti-Democratic institutions and overruling majorities.
- Silhouette 4y ago
  Protection of minorities has nothing to do with democracy, and is often anti-Democratic. Exactly. And that means protecting minorities from abuse - particularly abuse caused by short-term or ill-informed policy making by politicians - is the big challenge facing any political system based on representative democracy. But before you can get that far you first need to have your representatives democratically elected in the first place and most of us don't right now. In the west, minorities are increasingly being invoked by elites as pretexts for strengthening anti-Democratic institutions and overruling majorities. Careful. Relatively few policies implemented by Western governments actually have a clear, verifiable majority of the public in support of them. For that you essentially need either a referendum or a clear result electing representatives on an explicit platform of implementing that policy and where that policy is known to be the deciding factor in voters' choice of representative. For everything else in a representative democracy we elect our representatives usually based on some very narrow set of priorities and yet those representatives are entrusted with deciding on any government policy that requires a decision throughout their term of office. There is a very long tail of minor issues that can still profoundly affect the lives of many people yet where the representatives making the decisions certainly were not elected based on their position on those particular issues. Even on major issues situations will inevitably change during the term of office of elected representatives and their response to any emergency was almost certainly not something voters had an opportunity to consider before making their choice at the last election. Representative democracy has obvious practical advantages over requiring direct democracy for every little decision any government ever makes but it also implies limitations on the democratic mandate granted to representatives and by extension on the legitimacy of any actions those representatives take on behalf of their electorate. Strong checks and balances are essential to keep representative democracy democratic. One common safeguard is to have constitutional rules about the most important policies where the powers of any current representatives to act in those areas are limited without going back to their electorate for a specific decision to change the foundational rules. Another is having a power of recall so that if the voters who elected a representative are unhappy with their actions then they can require a fresh election that might choose a different representative instead. Crucially both of those safeguards ultimately depend on an explicit decision by the entire electorate, which can and should be more powerful in a democracy than any decision by elected representatives.

rconti 4y ago

"democracy is under threat when people ~I don't like~ who advocate the overturn of democracy are elected" FTFY.

refurb 4y ago
You include Hilary Clinton in that? When she called Trump an “illegitimate president”?
- weard_beard 4y ago
  We treat speech differently based on context. Yelling fire in the middle of the ocean with no one around is legally distinct from yelling fire in a crowded theater. I would argue that without the intent or ability to act in a dangerous manner that this speech is legally distinct from the same statement with those qualifiers. The realities of limited resources in our judicial system and common sense require us to make these distinctions. The difference here, in my mind, is that Hillary Clinton was not able or intending to spur a grassroots coup that was dangerous to our Democracy based on her statements.
  - refurb 4y ago
    Why do you read Hilary’s comments in the best possible light and Trump’s in the worst? Why the double standard? Either calling into question our electoral system is ok or not ok. It’s important we hold all people accountable equally.
mjfl 4y ago
You really are not grasping how ubiquitously this concept is used. Biden has declared democratically elected people like Georgia Meloni and Victor Orban, and candidates like Marine le Pen to be dangers to democracy. It certainly isn't restricted to Trump. The fact that you jump to him shows how blind you are.
- int_19h 4y ago
  Democratically elected people can absolutely be a danger to democracy. I remember when Russia democratically elected Putin. In 5 years, all opposition TV channels were owned by the government and the oligarchs that chose subserviency over prison. In 10 years, elections were so blatantly fraudulent that voting became pointless.