3 ms·

> undeniable neo-Nazi element One of the things I've learned as an outsider while trying to distinguish between propaganda and reality vis a vis Ukraine is tha

> undeniable neo-Nazi element One of the things I've learned as an outsider while trying to distinguish between propaganda and reality vis a vis Ukraine is that the Nazis are pretty deniable.

hermitcrab 4y ago
It would be weird if Ukraine didn't have any neo-Nazis, given that pretty much every other European country does.
- notahacker 4y ago
  Speaking of weird, I don't think there's a single person banging on about how the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine justified the invasion that wouldn't have enthusiastically defended the actual Nazis in the 1930s...
  - astrange 4y ago
    Some people are just confused by what comes out of Russia, because when Russians say "Nazis" they mean "enemies of Russia". They don't care about the anti-Semitism or anything; Russians are also anti-Semitic and didn't bother learning about the Holocaust. They just remember WW2 as that time Germany attacked them. So it's perfectly straightforward that Ukrainian Jewish people like Zelensky are also Nazis.
epistasis 4y ago
It is quite a good marker! However, given the history of oppression, pogroms, and anti-Semitism not only in Ukraine but also Poland, Russia, and all of Europe, the lack of anti-Semitism in today's Ukrainian nationalism is a remarkable change from the past. The anti-Semitic statements regularly coming from Russian officials is quite a contrast. The Jewish people at Maidan that ironically referred to themselves as Judeo-Banderistas is quite a comment on this shift in Ukraine. In fact, the first audience question in this talk by historian Marci Shore speaking to a Judaic Studies audience about the war and Zelenskyy, was "where's the anti-Semitism?" (1:03:00): https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc And her answer is that a civic identity is being developed in the nation, separate from ethnicity. Also quite interesting is the assertion that this lie about modern day Ukrainian neo-Nazism came from the same propaganda factory that created the Hillary Clinton pizza pedopholoa conspiracy, and led to the whole Q thing. One of my favorite lectures I've seen in the past months, if the topic grabs you.

> undeniable neo-Nazi element One of the things I've learned as an outsider while trying to distinguish between propaganda and reality vis a vis Ukraine is that the Nazis are pretty deniable.

hermitcrab 4y ago

It would be weird if Ukraine didn't have any neo-Nazis, given that pretty much every other European country does.

notahacker 4y ago
Speaking of weird, I don't think there's a single person banging on about how the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine justified the invasion that wouldn't have enthusiastically defended the actual Nazis in the 1930s...
- astrange 4y ago
  Some people are just confused by what comes out of Russia, because when Russians say "Nazis" they mean "enemies of Russia". They don't care about the anti-Semitism or anything; Russians are also anti-Semitic and didn't bother learning about the Holocaust. They just remember WW2 as that time Germany attacked them. So it's perfectly straightforward that Ukrainian Jewish people like Zelensky are also Nazis.

epistasis 4y ago

It is quite a good marker! However, given the history of oppression, pogroms, and anti-Semitism not only in Ukraine but also Poland, Russia, and all of Europe, the lack of anti-Semitism in today's Ukrainian nationalism is a remarkable change from the past. The anti-Semitic statements regularly coming from Russian officials is quite a contrast. The Jewish people at Maidan that ironically referred to themselves as Judeo-Banderistas is quite a comment on this shift in Ukraine. In fact, the first audience question in this talk by historian Marci Shore speaking to a Judaic Studies audience about the war and Zelenskyy, was "where's the anti-Semitism?" (1:03:00): https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc And her answer is that a civic identity is being developed in the nation, separate from ethnicity. Also quite interesting is the assertion that this lie about modern day Ukrainian neo-Nazism came from the same propaganda factory that created the Hillary Clinton pizza pedopholoa conspiracy, and led to the whole Q thing. One of my favorite lectures I've seen in the past months, if the topic grabs you.