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What is the difference between end-to-end- and point-to-point-encrypted?

by m4lvin 4y ago

eitland 4y ago
End-to-end-encrypted means without significant, unexpected breakthroughs in mathematics, no one can read it between the sender and the recipient, even if the traffic pass through FSB, NSA, Telegram, Google and Facebook headquarters and they all conspire to break it. Point-to-point-encrypted means it can theoretically[1] be read by the vendor (Telegram in this case) or anyone who can coerce the vendor. This is the standard for mail, online banking etc. The reason for providing both end-to-end-encrypted and point-to-point-encrypted is that point-to-point-encryption is significantly simpler, which makes it easiee to create useful and or cool features. [1]: vendors can do a nunber of things to make it hard/next to impossible for employees and others to access data, like for example restricting access to user data to service accounts, only allow debugging access in special circumstances and auditing such debugging access. Telegram used to claim they solve it by sending/storing encrypted data through/in different data centers from the keys, and keeping these days centers in different jurisdictions. Done properly should mean that two or more employees across the company would have to conspire to get access to customer data, or two or more judges in different countries would have to demand data. But unlike with end-to-end-encryption we have to take their word for it.
pmontra 4y ago
Building over eitland's reply, Telegram allows users to see messages on several devices. This is because they terminate encryption on their servers and can send a copy of the plaintext message (re-encrypted) to every other device of the same user. They also store a copy because you can start from scratch with no surviving devices and a brand new one. All you need is access to your account. E2E chats work only on one device and are invisible to the other devices of the user [1]. More technical details at [2] [1] https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats [2] https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end
- mort96 4y ago
  Essentially it just means that the connection between the app and the server is encrypted à la HTTPS, right?
  - pmontra 4y ago
    Right. With E2E they receive encrypted data, with point to point they get plain text.
    - eitland 4y ago
      I think this can be misunderstood in at least two ways. My most understanding reading is that you mean Telegram receives the data in plain text at their servers. That reading implies that they don't do this whole "encrypted data one way, keys another way" thing. (If we know they don't do that I am interested in knowing.) But a number of people here on HN will read it as "Telegram sends data unencrypted", which is definitely incorrect.

What is the difference between end-to-end- and point-to-point-encrypted?

by m4lvin 4y ago

What is the difference between end-to-end- and point-to-point-encrypted?

End-to-end-encrypted means without significant, unexpected breakthroughs in mathematics, no one can read it between the sender and the recipient, even if the traffic pass through FSB, NSA, Telegram, Google and Facebook headquarters and they all conspire to break it. Point-to-point-encrypted means it can theoretically[1] be read by the vendor (Telegram in this case) or anyone who can coerce the vendor. This is the standard for mail, online banking etc. The reason for providing both end-to-end-encrypted and point-to-point-encrypted is that point-to-point-encryption is significantly simpler, which makes it easiee to create useful and or cool features. [1]: vendors can do a nunber of things to make it hard/next to impossible for employees and others to access data, like for example restricting access to user data to service accounts, only allow debugging access in special circumstances and auditing such debugging access. Telegram used to claim they solve it by sending/storing encrypted data through/in different data centers from the keys, and keeping these days centers in different jurisdictions. Done properly should mean that two or more employees across the company would have to conspire to get access to customer data, or two or more judges in different countries would have to demand data. But unlike with end-to-end-encryption we have to take their word for it.

pmontra 4y ago

Building over eitland's reply, Telegram allows users to see messages on several devices. This is because they terminate encryption on their servers and can send a copy of the plaintext message (re-encrypted) to every other device of the same user. They also store a copy because you can start from scratch with no surviving devices and a brand new one. All you need is access to your account. E2E chats work only on one device and are invisible to the other devices of the user [1]. More technical details at [2] [1] https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats [2] https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end

mort96 4y ago
Essentially it just means that the connection between the app and the server is encrypted à la HTTPS, right?
- pmontra 4y ago
  Right. With E2E they receive encrypted data, with point to point they get plain text.
  - eitland 4y ago
    I think this can be misunderstood in at least two ways. My most understanding reading is that you mean Telegram receives the data in plain text at their servers. That reading implies that they don't do this whole "encrypted data one way, keys another way" thing. (If we know they don't do that I am interested in knowing.) But a number of people here on HN will read it as "Telegram sends data unencrypted", which is definitely incorrect.