5 ms·

> * Housing - separate from just planning, there are specific rules within the housing market that cause distortions above the planning system failing to produc

by mmarq 4y ago

> * Housing - separate from just planning, there are specific rules within the housing market that cause distortions above the planning system failing to produce enough supply. For example, rent controls in Scotland...that caused a 40% drop in rental supply in two weeks, this is economic mismanagement on a grand scale. Umpteenth reminder that England is the only place on planet Earth where people earning a top 10% salary, that is 70K£ pa, are at constant risk of eviction and live in houses and flats with mice and bed bugs and where children die of mould. Incidentally it is also the country with the least regulated private rental market.

skippyboxedhero 4y ago
Hardening eviction rules is economic suicide. The problem with unsuitable housing is a side-effect of lack of supply. If you make it harder to evict, you make it harder to foreclose, make it harder to buy houses (because landlords can only sell to other landlords)...it is very bad news. This happened almost immediately after Scotland brought in their rules...because politicians there have been blocking new builds for decades (and favouring social housing so people are more dependent on the state). What is amazing is that this stuff happens, you see the complete failure of a set of economic ideas, and then the next day you have people suggesting the exact same thing...and people wonder why Britain is in the state it is in? The country's elite have vigorous support for ideas that are economically damaging, the voters love it, the journos love it, the lobbyists love it...not surprising.
- mmarq 4y ago
  > Hardening eviction rules is economic suicide. No, it isn’t. The current state of affairs in England (even Scotland and Wales have different regulations) only causes misery and an immense waste of resources on housing. Or do you think Germans or Frenchmen spend 3 months a year doing house viewings? Nowhere in the civilised world you can evict a family that doesn’t have rent arrears and nowhere in the civilised world you have a homelessness problem comparable to the English (maybe San Francisco being the exception).
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    The reason you spend that time is because of the rules. Actually, the homeless rate in Edinburgh (which actually has an eviction ban and, even, rent controls now) is 3x the rate of SF...the reason why is that most of the rental market disappeared because eviction control meant that landlords could only sell properties at the end of rental periods (and when these came up in September, they all just removed properties from the market because house prices are going to be lower next September). The law of unintended consequences. The govt tried to take control, and it has made the problem significantly worse. This is the economic problem that the UK faces in a nutshell: voters want things that are economically damaging (the situation with housing is probably 10x Brexit), they don't understand why they are damaging, and when the damage comes they blame someone else (and btw, the most amazing thing is that if you look at a city like Edinburgh...the people are VOTING for the people who are promising not to build any housing WHILST they are complaining about a lack of housing...it is the kind of thing that makes you realise that people are getting what they are asked for).
    - sega_sai 4y ago
      "is 3x the rate of SF" -- citation needed. I live in Edinburgh and have been in SF and very much struggle to believe it.
      - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
        You need to find the data yourself. There is no public source that makes this comparison. I have lived in Edinburgh for two decades btw. Most people who work here have absolutely no idea how many homeless people live there (it has been in the thousands for years) because almost none of these people live on the street or have substance abuse problems (and Edinburgh has very effective segregation so the wealthy don't have to see the poor or their problems). They are just normal people who have been evicted for whatever reason, and have nowhere to live because the city doesn't have enough housing. So they get put into hotels or B&Bs (but, because of the refugee situation, these have largely been exhausted now too...I remember a few years ago when they were trying to house Syrians, the council said...literally no room, we are overloaded beyond belief...since then refugees worth about 2-4% of the population came...the council has been telling poor people they have to leave now, go to England, go to the Highlands, they don't care, just leave...people who have been paying rates for decades). Last year (i.e. before the latest crisis got very severe) there were 20 thousand people on the council's waiting list...this is in a city of 400k people (and, obviously, significantly less households). The numbers are absolutely staggering and, again, people who live in Edinburgh have no idea because most people who work there have no contact whatsoever with "locals". They vote for brownfield-only building, they love the Cockburn Association intervening on every planning decision, they vote for the green belt, etc.
namdnay 4y ago
I assume you’re talking about London? I doubt that 70k£ is top 10% in London
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  Google search found "Median annual earnings for full-time employees in the United Kingdom from 1999 to 2022 (in GBP), by percentile" here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/416102/average-annual-gross-pay-percentiles-united-kingdom/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/416102/average-annual-gr... Data on the average annual gross salary percentiles in the United Kingdom in 2022 showed that the bottom ten percent of full-time workers earned an average of 19,403 British pounds a year, with the top ten percent of workers earning around 62,583 pounds a year. Agree: No way this is Greater London.
  - Jochim 4y ago
    The BBC say it's ~£86k in 2020. Not too far off. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53628115 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53628115
siquick 4y ago
> Umpteenth reminder that England is the only place on planet Earth where people earning a top 10% salary, that is 70K£ pa, are at constant risk of eviction Reminder that London is not England. Top 10% earners in most other parts of the country live very comfortably.

by mmarq 4y ago

skippyboxedhero 4y ago

Hardening eviction rules is economic suicide. The problem with unsuitable housing is a side-effect of lack of supply. If you make it harder to evict, you make it harder to foreclose, make it harder to buy houses (because landlords can only sell to other landlords)...it is very bad news. This happened almost immediately after Scotland brought in their rules...because politicians there have been blocking new builds for decades (and favouring social housing so people are more dependent on the state). What is amazing is that this stuff happens, you see the complete failure of a set of economic ideas, and then the next day you have people suggesting the exact same thing...and people wonder why Britain is in the state it is in? The country's elite have vigorous support for ideas that are economically damaging, the voters love it, the journos love it, the lobbyists love it...not surprising.

mmarq 4y ago
> Hardening eviction rules is economic suicide. No, it isn’t. The current state of affairs in England (even Scotland and Wales have different regulations) only causes misery and an immense waste of resources on housing. Or do you think Germans or Frenchmen spend 3 months a year doing house viewings? Nowhere in the civilised world you can evict a family that doesn’t have rent arrears and nowhere in the civilised world you have a homelessness problem comparable to the English (maybe San Francisco being the exception).
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  The reason you spend that time is because of the rules. Actually, the homeless rate in Edinburgh (which actually has an eviction ban and, even, rent controls now) is 3x the rate of SF...the reason why is that most of the rental market disappeared because eviction control meant that landlords could only sell properties at the end of rental periods (and when these came up in September, they all just removed properties from the market because house prices are going to be lower next September). The law of unintended consequences. The govt tried to take control, and it has made the problem significantly worse. This is the economic problem that the UK faces in a nutshell: voters want things that are economically damaging (the situation with housing is probably 10x Brexit), they don't understand why they are damaging, and when the damage comes they blame someone else (and btw, the most amazing thing is that if you look at a city like Edinburgh...the people are VOTING for the people who are promising not to build any housing WHILST they are complaining about a lack of housing...it is the kind of thing that makes you realise that people are getting what they are asked for).
  - sega_sai 4y ago
    "is 3x the rate of SF" -- citation needed. I live in Edinburgh and have been in SF and very much struggle to believe it.
    - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
      You need to find the data yourself. There is no public source that makes this comparison. I have lived in Edinburgh for two decades btw. Most people who work here have absolutely no idea how many homeless people live there (it has been in the thousands for years) because almost none of these people live on the street or have substance abuse problems (and Edinburgh has very effective segregation so the wealthy don't have to see the poor or their problems). They are just normal people who have been evicted for whatever reason, and have nowhere to live because the city doesn't have enough housing. So they get put into hotels or B&Bs (but, because of the refugee situation, these have largely been exhausted now too...I remember a few years ago when they were trying to house Syrians, the council said...literally no room, we are overloaded beyond belief...since then refugees worth about 2-4% of the population came...the council has been telling poor people they have to leave now, go to England, go to the Highlands, they don't care, just leave...people who have been paying rates for decades). Last year (i.e. before the latest crisis got very severe) there were 20 thousand people on the council's waiting list...this is in a city of 400k people (and, obviously, significantly less households). The numbers are absolutely staggering and, again, people who live in Edinburgh have no idea because most people who work there have no contact whatsoever with "locals". They vote for brownfield-only building, they love the Cockburn Association intervening on every planning decision, they vote for the green belt, etc.

namdnay 4y ago

I assume you’re talking about London? I doubt that 70k£ is top 10% in London

throwaway2037 4y ago
Google search found "Median annual earnings for full-time employees in the United Kingdom from 1999 to 2022 (in GBP), by percentile" here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/416102/average-annual-gross-pay-percentiles-united-kingdom/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/416102/average-annual-gr... Data on the average annual gross salary percentiles in the United Kingdom in 2022 showed that the bottom ten percent of full-time workers earned an average of 19,403 British pounds a year, with the top ten percent of workers earning around 62,583 pounds a year. Agree: No way this is Greater London.
- Jochim 4y ago
  The BBC say it's ~£86k in 2020. Not too far off. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53628115 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53628115

siquick 4y ago

> Umpteenth reminder that England is the only place on planet Earth where people earning a top 10% salary, that is 70K£ pa, are at constant risk of eviction Reminder that London is not England. Top 10% earners in most other parts of the country live very comfortably.