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Pushing for the expansion of NATO and promoting a regime change operation in Ukraine that resulted in a government that attempted to ban the Russian language an

Pushing for the expansion of NATO and promoting a regime change operation in Ukraine that resulted in a government that attempted to ban the Russian language and which had an undeniable neo-Nazi element affiliated with it was not such a good idea in retrospect, was it? Imagine if a regime came to power in the USA, and it attempted to ban the Spanish language, eliminated Spanish-language versions of government documents, etc. Maybe many regions of the USA - such as much of the American Southwest - would not want to be ruled by such a government? Similarly, how do you think the USA would respond to Chinese military bases and nuclear weapons being based in Mexico, or Russian military bases and nuclear weapons being based in Cuba (oh, we've already seen what kind of response that triggered, back in 1962-1963, wasn't it)?

hermitcrab 4y ago
Ukraine had no realistic prospect of joining NATO any time soon (that may change since the invasion). Without the expansion of NATO it might have been the baltic states that were on the recieving end of a 'special operation' long before now. And they would have been much less able to defend themselves than Ukraine has been. Pretty much every country has a 'neo-Nazi element'. Including Britain and the US. It isn't clear to me that Ukraine was any worse in this respect. >in a government that attempted to ban the Russian language "Ukraine’s parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-language-idUSKCN1S111N https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-langua... If that what you are referring to? That doesn't sound like a ban on the Russian language to me.
epistasis 4y ago
> attempted to ban the Russian language Yikes, this is a terrible lie. Source: the Ukrainians in my household who were primarily Russian speaking up until February. Your comment has no basis in reality, is just regurgitating the propaganda of a genocidal autocrat which is attempting to extinguish Ukrainians as a language. Repeating lies like this is somewhat despicable, and though I'm trying to remain polite because of HN rules, such ridiculous propaganda that you are spouting is beyond the pale and in real life would be close to fighting words.
justin66 4y ago
> undeniable neo-Nazi element One of the things I've learned as an outsider while trying to distinguish between propaganda and reality vis a vis Ukraine is that the Nazis are pretty deniable.
- hermitcrab 4y ago
  It would be weird if Ukraine didn't have any neo-Nazis, given that pretty much every other European country does.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    Speaking of weird, I don't think there's a single person banging on about how the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine justified the invasion that wouldn't have enthusiastically defended the actual Nazis in the 1930s...
    - astrange 4y ago
      Some people are just confused by what comes out of Russia, because when Russians say "Nazis" they mean "enemies of Russia". They don't care about the anti-Semitism or anything; Russians are also anti-Semitic and didn't bother learning about the Holocaust. They just remember WW2 as that time Germany attacked them. So it's perfectly straightforward that Ukrainian Jewish people like Zelensky are also Nazis.
- epistasis 4y ago
  It is quite a good marker! However, given the history of oppression, pogroms, and anti-Semitism not only in Ukraine but also Poland, Russia, and all of Europe, the lack of anti-Semitism in today's Ukrainian nationalism is a remarkable change from the past. The anti-Semitic statements regularly coming from Russian officials is quite a contrast. The Jewish people at Maidan that ironically referred to themselves as Judeo-Banderistas is quite a comment on this shift in Ukraine. In fact, the first audience question in this talk by historian Marci Shore speaking to a Judaic Studies audience about the war and Zelenskyy, was "where's the anti-Semitism?" (1:03:00): https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc And her answer is that a civic identity is being developed in the nation, separate from ethnicity. Also quite interesting is the assertion that this lie about modern day Ukrainian neo-Nazism came from the same propaganda factory that created the Hillary Clinton pizza pedopholoa conspiracy, and led to the whole Q thing. One of my favorite lectures I've seen in the past months, if the topic grabs you.

hermitcrab 4y ago

Ukraine had no realistic prospect of joining NATO any time soon (that may change since the invasion). Without the expansion of NATO it might have been the baltic states that were on the recieving end of a 'special operation' long before now. And they would have been much less able to defend themselves than Ukraine has been. Pretty much every country has a 'neo-Nazi element'. Including Britain and the US. It isn't clear to me that Ukraine was any worse in this respect. >in a government that attempted to ban the Russian language "Ukraine’s parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-language-idUSKCN1S111N https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-langua... If that what you are referring to? That doesn't sound like a ban on the Russian language to me.

epistasis 4y ago

> attempted to ban the Russian language Yikes, this is a terrible lie. Source: the Ukrainians in my household who were primarily Russian speaking up until February. Your comment has no basis in reality, is just regurgitating the propaganda of a genocidal autocrat which is attempting to extinguish Ukrainians as a language. Repeating lies like this is somewhat despicable, and though I'm trying to remain polite because of HN rules, such ridiculous propaganda that you are spouting is beyond the pale and in real life would be close to fighting words.

justin66 4y ago

> undeniable neo-Nazi element One of the things I've learned as an outsider while trying to distinguish between propaganda and reality vis a vis Ukraine is that the Nazis are pretty deniable.

hermitcrab 4y ago
It would be weird if Ukraine didn't have any neo-Nazis, given that pretty much every other European country does.
- notahacker 4y ago
  Speaking of weird, I don't think there's a single person banging on about how the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine justified the invasion that wouldn't have enthusiastically defended the actual Nazis in the 1930s...
  - astrange 4y ago
    Some people are just confused by what comes out of Russia, because when Russians say "Nazis" they mean "enemies of Russia". They don't care about the anti-Semitism or anything; Russians are also anti-Semitic and didn't bother learning about the Holocaust. They just remember WW2 as that time Germany attacked them. So it's perfectly straightforward that Ukrainian Jewish people like Zelensky are also Nazis.
epistasis 4y ago
It is quite a good marker! However, given the history of oppression, pogroms, and anti-Semitism not only in Ukraine but also Poland, Russia, and all of Europe, the lack of anti-Semitism in today's Ukrainian nationalism is a remarkable change from the past. The anti-Semitic statements regularly coming from Russian officials is quite a contrast. The Jewish people at Maidan that ironically referred to themselves as Judeo-Banderistas is quite a comment on this shift in Ukraine. In fact, the first audience question in this talk by historian Marci Shore speaking to a Judaic Studies audience about the war and Zelenskyy, was "where's the anti-Semitism?" (1:03:00): https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc And her answer is that a civic identity is being developed in the nation, separate from ethnicity. Also quite interesting is the assertion that this lie about modern day Ukrainian neo-Nazism came from the same propaganda factory that created the Hillary Clinton pizza pedopholoa conspiracy, and led to the whole Q thing. One of my favorite lectures I've seen in the past months, if the topic grabs you.