5 ms·

No universal but I'm very much anti valve as they are among the few who continue to do business in Russia.

curiousgal 4y ago
If Russia is where you draw the line boy do I have news for you! If your standards were universal, you wouldn't be doing business with any company at all.
- npteljes 4y ago
  Especially with entertainment, I haven't understood the anti-Putin sentiment. Is it really in the West's interest to stop exporting soft power there? Sanctions make sense to me, but this particular industry we should make an exception for, I'd say. Authoritarian regimes try to isolate their populace anyways, it'd be a shame to co-opt that.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    Yes, let's ensure we continue to give young Russian males an outlet to escape from thinking about the current realities in their country. Steam is providing the modern circus in 'bread and circuses'. If anything, this is the exact soft power we should leverage to highlight to those your angst filled males that their current reality is isolating them. Or, we could just give an opium of the masses to keep them indifferent to reality in their rooms because 'soft power'.
    - npteljes 4y ago
      You can be sure that if we don't give them outlets, China will. Do you think nobody would fill the vacuum? If they'd ban every media import, that'd just be an opportunity for the regime to further solidify their own goals. For examples, look at what happened when McDonalds, Coca Cola left the country - they have the same shit, but now without the influence. Whatever there is, there will be abuses of it, so yeah, many would just use the "opium" part of Steam. But there's another aspect of it that would still get imported, and that's any of the narratives that differ from the propaganda they are subjected to. With Steam specifically, they'd be exposed to titles like This War of Mine, and international communities where they'd experience that nobody gives a fuck about them being Russian, or even find it cool, despite the prevalent anti-Western propaganda in their own media. And that all, I think, is worth more than sanctioning it.
    - npteljes 4y ago
      >Steam is providing the modern circus in 'bread and circuses' Also, you know what really provides bread and circuses? Populist bullshit such as "Putin banning LGBT propaganda". Nothing better to take the minds off of pressing issues like further harming a marginalized group. https://news.yahoo.com/vladimir-putin-bans-lgbt-propaganda-180942974.html https://news.yahoo.com/vladimir-putin-bans-lgbt-propaganda-1...
  - rsj_hn 4y ago
    As a whole, Russian nationalists were popping champagne corks when Western media and other influence operations left Russia. It was basically everything they wanted. Given to them for free. By their enemies. Everything that cuts a dependency also cuts an influence vector and increases sovereignty. The world is moving to regional blocks -- a Western block of North America and Europe, a Eurasian block of Russia/India/Iran/Middle-East/China, and the loyalties of Africa/Latin America are where the wars for influence will be fought, with Africa tilting toward Eurasia and Latin America tilting toward the West. Other battle grounds would be marginal areas like Southeast Asia/Pacific Islands and in Europe the balkans. In that context, it makes no sense for the Eurasian block to allow a business to operate domestically from an enemy block. Why on earth would you let them influence your population? For the same reason, Eurasian influence operations are being banned in the West, from Confucian Institutes to Sputnik News. The main entrypoints to a block will be those nations that have sufficiently rigid control over their domestic populations to feel free with enemy dependencies -- that would be the US and China, both with impressive soft power and sophisticated information control regimes. That is why US made films that are shown in China often have to have different scenes in them - sometimes shot with different endings -- and there are strict limits. China has their own system of deboosting content and their own troll farms. Same for any kind of internet presence and also video games and other media. Likewise, the US has a sophisticated system of banning and other soft "deboosting" of views that run counter to official regime narratives. There is a whole industry to identify counter-narrative views and brand them as "misinformation" that must be rooted out. Russia has a much less sophisticated information space defense system for this, and much less soft power, so for them outright bans and blocks are the only viable option, and this was given to them by the West on a platter. Amazing self-own.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  As a hippie that lives in the Rocky mountains, why do you assume I do business with large corporations? And I definitely feel let down by Steam's take to continue to provide entertainment for the masses so that they don't have to contemplate what their country is doing. They are the circus in bread and circuses. But yes you are right, I should just be paralyzed from basing my opinion of any company because 'other companies, other countries'. What a productive take that would be.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    I just need to point out these 'it's pointless to do anything' people are wrong. My small mountain town's 1Gb fiber ISP is local. Our power company is a co-op. The gas station I use is a co-op. My limited meat consumption comes from an organic Mennonite family farm. Summer months my produce comes from a local CSA and I'm lucky to have a great local flower CSA as well. You can actually live in the modern world in comfort AND choose how you live, even in the USA.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Where do they get their gas?
    - civopsec 4y ago
      Local co-ops are the opiates of the hippie masses. It keeps them plump and happy in their little faux communes and away from the fight against corporations, state and federal government. As someone who lives 5000 “miles” away I feel really strongly about judging these hillbillies/rockabillies that I’ve never met and I for some reason feel that they should be inconvenienced so that they can take up the fight against their government, which after all is the biggest imperial power on the planet.
vlunkr 4y ago
What would be the point in cutting regular Russian citizens off from video games? It may actually be a good way to communicate with them.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Video games are the modern 'circus' in 'bread and circuses' it provides an opiate for that masses to escape from confronting their current situation and gives the government an escape valve for young male angst. As to communication, have you seen Russianss on the Steam forums? It's all Zs, Russian flags, and ethnic slurs against Ukrainians.
  - vlunkr 4y ago
    I can see that, but it's a complex situation and I have counterpoints. - Young male angst has no shortage of outlets. Sports, both extreme and normal, tons of existing media, pirated media, blowing stuff up, etc. Taking away Steam accounts likely isn't going to turn them into revolutionaries. - In response the existing comments from Russians, that could be selection bias. Many of them could be commenting normally or not at all. After all, most of what you read on the internet is written by insane people. - Part of the problem in Russia is extreme media bias/propaganda. Further isolating them from foreign contact and influences can only make that worse and reinforce the narrative that everyone else is out to get them.
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      So, the users of Steam and what they post on their public pages, is selection bias when judging the usefulness of communicating with... the users of Steam?
      - npteljes 4y ago
        Yes, selection bias. Loud people are easy to spot. Lurkers are hard to spot. A loud minority, therefore, can create the illusion of a larger mass of similar folk. Take, for example, the gamergate situation. There was just SO much toxic communication, it was a complete shitstorm, where many were attacked online in a horrible manner. So, gamers sure are a toxic bunch, right? Well, turns out, there are 1.5 billion gamers on PC alone. I'm sure 95% percent of them never even heard about such a thing as gamergate. https://gamerant.com/3-billion-gamers-report/ https://gamerant.com/3-billion-gamers-report/
kilolima 4y ago
The best pirated game scenes are Russian, Valve exiting the market world mean very little. It's also a huge benefit to the rest of the world that Russian/ex Soviet culture has both very little respect for Western intellectual property laws and the technological abilities to make software and digital media easily available.
jeff_carr 4y ago
Punishing people living under totalitarian rule might not be a good idea.

If Russia is where you draw the line boy do I have news for you! If your standards were universal, you wouldn't be doing business with any company at all.

npteljes 4y ago
Especially with entertainment, I haven't understood the anti-Putin sentiment. Is it really in the West's interest to stop exporting soft power there? Sanctions make sense to me, but this particular industry we should make an exception for, I'd say. Authoritarian regimes try to isolate their populace anyways, it'd be a shame to co-opt that.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Yes, let's ensure we continue to give young Russian males an outlet to escape from thinking about the current realities in their country. Steam is providing the modern circus in 'bread and circuses'. If anything, this is the exact soft power we should leverage to highlight to those your angst filled males that their current reality is isolating them. Or, we could just give an opium of the masses to keep them indifferent to reality in their rooms because 'soft power'.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    You can be sure that if we don't give them outlets, China will. Do you think nobody would fill the vacuum? If they'd ban every media import, that'd just be an opportunity for the regime to further solidify their own goals. For examples, look at what happened when McDonalds, Coca Cola left the country - they have the same shit, but now without the influence. Whatever there is, there will be abuses of it, so yeah, many would just use the "opium" part of Steam. But there's another aspect of it that would still get imported, and that's any of the narratives that differ from the propaganda they are subjected to. With Steam specifically, they'd be exposed to titles like This War of Mine, and international communities where they'd experience that nobody gives a fuck about them being Russian, or even find it cool, despite the prevalent anti-Western propaganda in their own media. And that all, I think, is worth more than sanctioning it.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    >Steam is providing the modern circus in 'bread and circuses' Also, you know what really provides bread and circuses? Populist bullshit such as "Putin banning LGBT propaganda". Nothing better to take the minds off of pressing issues like further harming a marginalized group. https://news.yahoo.com/vladimir-putin-bans-lgbt-propaganda-180942974.html https://news.yahoo.com/vladimir-putin-bans-lgbt-propaganda-1...
- rsj_hn 4y ago
  As a whole, Russian nationalists were popping champagne corks when Western media and other influence operations left Russia. It was basically everything they wanted. Given to them for free. By their enemies. Everything that cuts a dependency also cuts an influence vector and increases sovereignty. The world is moving to regional blocks -- a Western block of North America and Europe, a Eurasian block of Russia/India/Iran/Middle-East/China, and the loyalties of Africa/Latin America are where the wars for influence will be fought, with Africa tilting toward Eurasia and Latin America tilting toward the West. Other battle grounds would be marginal areas like Southeast Asia/Pacific Islands and in Europe the balkans. In that context, it makes no sense for the Eurasian block to allow a business to operate domestically from an enemy block. Why on earth would you let them influence your population? For the same reason, Eurasian influence operations are being banned in the West, from Confucian Institutes to Sputnik News. The main entrypoints to a block will be those nations that have sufficiently rigid control over their domestic populations to feel free with enemy dependencies -- that would be the US and China, both with impressive soft power and sophisticated information control regimes. That is why US made films that are shown in China often have to have different scenes in them - sometimes shot with different endings -- and there are strict limits. China has their own system of deboosting content and their own troll farms. Same for any kind of internet presence and also video games and other media. Likewise, the US has a sophisticated system of banning and other soft "deboosting" of views that run counter to official regime narratives. There is a whole industry to identify counter-narrative views and brand them as "misinformation" that must be rooted out. Russia has a much less sophisticated information space defense system for this, and much less soft power, so for them outright bans and blocks are the only viable option, and this was given to them by the West on a platter. Amazing self-own.
ROTMetro 4y ago
As a hippie that lives in the Rocky mountains, why do you assume I do business with large corporations? And I definitely feel let down by Steam's take to continue to provide entertainment for the masses so that they don't have to contemplate what their country is doing. They are the circus in bread and circuses. But yes you are right, I should just be paralyzed from basing my opinion of any company because 'other companies, other countries'. What a productive take that would be.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  I just need to point out these 'it's pointless to do anything' people are wrong. My small mountain town's 1Gb fiber ISP is local. Our power company is a co-op. The gas station I use is a co-op. My limited meat consumption comes from an organic Mennonite family farm. Summer months my produce comes from a local CSA and I'm lucky to have a great local flower CSA as well. You can actually live in the modern world in comfort AND choose how you live, even in the USA.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Where do they get their gas?
  - civopsec 4y ago
    Local co-ops are the opiates of the hippie masses. It keeps them plump and happy in their little faux communes and away from the fight against corporations, state and federal government. As someone who lives 5000 “miles” away I feel really strongly about judging these hillbillies/rockabillies that I’ve never met and I for some reason feel that they should be inconvenienced so that they can take up the fight against their government, which after all is the biggest imperial power on the planet.

vlunkr 4y ago

What would be the point in cutting regular Russian citizens off from video games? It may actually be a good way to communicate with them.

ROTMetro 4y ago
Video games are the modern 'circus' in 'bread and circuses' it provides an opiate for that masses to escape from confronting their current situation and gives the government an escape valve for young male angst. As to communication, have you seen Russianss on the Steam forums? It's all Zs, Russian flags, and ethnic slurs against Ukrainians.
- vlunkr 4y ago
  I can see that, but it's a complex situation and I have counterpoints. - Young male angst has no shortage of outlets. Sports, both extreme and normal, tons of existing media, pirated media, blowing stuff up, etc. Taking away Steam accounts likely isn't going to turn them into revolutionaries. - In response the existing comments from Russians, that could be selection bias. Many of them could be commenting normally or not at all. After all, most of what you read on the internet is written by insane people. - Part of the problem in Russia is extreme media bias/propaganda. Further isolating them from foreign contact and influences can only make that worse and reinforce the narrative that everyone else is out to get them.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    So, the users of Steam and what they post on their public pages, is selection bias when judging the usefulness of communicating with... the users of Steam?
    - npteljes 4y ago
      Yes, selection bias. Loud people are easy to spot. Lurkers are hard to spot. A loud minority, therefore, can create the illusion of a larger mass of similar folk. Take, for example, the gamergate situation. There was just SO much toxic communication, it was a complete shitstorm, where many were attacked online in a horrible manner. So, gamers sure are a toxic bunch, right? Well, turns out, there are 1.5 billion gamers on PC alone. I'm sure 95% percent of them never even heard about such a thing as gamergate. https://gamerant.com/3-billion-gamers-report/ https://gamerant.com/3-billion-gamers-report/

kilolima 4y ago

The best pirated game scenes are Russian, Valve exiting the market world mean very little. It's also a huge benefit to the rest of the world that Russian/ex Soviet culture has both very little respect for Western intellectual property laws and the technological abilities to make software and digital media easily available.

jeff_carr 4y ago

Punishing people living under totalitarian rule might not be a good idea.