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Many programmers seem to have pathological humility. Being humble is good, it makes you aware of your faults and areas of improvement. Yet that's only half of

Many programmers seem to have pathological humility. Being humble is good, it makes you aware of your faults and areas of improvement. Yet that's only half of it. We also have to be aware of our successes so that we know what we should be doing. Programmers often look up to civil engineers. They imagine that if we built software like we built bridges, it would be better. Civil engineering uses the "waterfall" method. You state your requirements, design the thing, build it, and test it. But we have tried this for software and it just doesn't work. We can never anticipate all the faults or design flaws in advance. So we switched to iterative development with very short cycle times. You can't do iterative development on a bridge, so we've already diverged. Software is fundamentally different to anything that has ever existed. Computers are now writing code, something they couldn't do two years ago. There has been a steady increase in volatility over the previous decades. Attempting to impose rules and structure during a period of volatility is futile. The 2nd Cambrian is starting, enjoy the ride.

rep_lodsb 4y ago
Yes, software is fundamentally different compared to building physical stuff. It's like having the ability to arrange individual atoms into any shape, and replicate that structure in whatever quantity desired. And then completely filling the landscape with bridges constructed out of Lego bricks. They say it's good enough, sure we could theoretically do something better, but nobody has the time for that. And anyway, if bridges lasted forever or we needed less of them, there would no longer be such a demand for engineers!
- p-e-w 4y ago
  It's fascinating and revolting at the same time how the essence of your comment is once again the "everything sucks" garbage. There are billions of lines of top-quality code in existence, and millions of lines that should be counted among humanity's great works of art, but no, it's all "Lego bricks". Most artists don't produce anything remotely like Michelangelo or Picasso, yet Michelangelo and Picasso are what people think of when they hear the word "art". No one says "art is so terrible, just stick figure drawings everywhere". The perception of software engineering reflected in your comment is not grounded in reality but in culture. An ultimately destructive culture of negativity and self-deprecation. And I'm so fucking tired of it that I wish I had chosen a different profession.
p-e-w 4y ago
Humility is one thing. Virtue-signaling whining of the type "oh we are so terrible and everything we build is broken" is a very different thing. Do the experiment: Take any such statement (which you can find dozens of on HN every single day), then modify it for another science or engineering profession and see if you end up with something that sounds even remotely appropriate. "Oh, us aerospace engineers are so terrible! The JWST is 15 years late and 15 times over budget, and even after all that time and money we only managed to deliver a piece of junk that almost got knocked out by a tiny fragment of space shrapnel." Do you really find it acceptable when people speak in this manner of what you do? I cannot think of any other profession that would tolerate this, much less culturally encourage it.
- jacksnipe 4y ago
  Up top I want to be clear: I totally agree that software is really, really close to actual magic. I think comments like this are less about the reality of the situation and more about a bad vibe about the industry, and venting. I think we’ve all been in a situation where “doing a good job” meant moving a little faster than we think is appropriate. These pressures add up, and I don’t think it’s totally unreasonable that some folks who witness things too far on that end of the spectrum might scream out into the void. I don’t think it generally comes from a place of disrespect. In fact I feel like it comes from a place of feeling like doing good work is important. If i get it in person though, it does generally come from folks who think they’re better than me, which I agree is disrespectful.

rep_lodsb 4y ago

Yes, software is fundamentally different compared to building physical stuff. It's like having the ability to arrange individual atoms into any shape, and replicate that structure in whatever quantity desired. And then completely filling the landscape with bridges constructed out of Lego bricks. They say it's good enough, sure we could theoretically do something better, but nobody has the time for that. And anyway, if bridges lasted forever or we needed less of them, there would no longer be such a demand for engineers!

p-e-w 4y ago
It's fascinating and revolting at the same time how the essence of your comment is once again the "everything sucks" garbage. There are billions of lines of top-quality code in existence, and millions of lines that should be counted among humanity's great works of art, but no, it's all "Lego bricks". Most artists don't produce anything remotely like Michelangelo or Picasso, yet Michelangelo and Picasso are what people think of when they hear the word "art". No one says "art is so terrible, just stick figure drawings everywhere". The perception of software engineering reflected in your comment is not grounded in reality but in culture. An ultimately destructive culture of negativity and self-deprecation. And I'm so fucking tired of it that I wish I had chosen a different profession.

p-e-w 4y ago

Humility is one thing. Virtue-signaling whining of the type "oh we are so terrible and everything we build is broken" is a very different thing. Do the experiment: Take any such statement (which you can find dozens of on HN every single day), then modify it for another science or engineering profession and see if you end up with something that sounds even remotely appropriate. "Oh, us aerospace engineers are so terrible! The JWST is 15 years late and 15 times over budget, and even after all that time and money we only managed to deliver a piece of junk that almost got knocked out by a tiny fragment of space shrapnel." Do you really find it acceptable when people speak in this manner of what you do? I cannot think of any other profession that would tolerate this, much less culturally encourage it.

jacksnipe 4y ago
Up top I want to be clear: I totally agree that software is really, really close to actual magic. I think comments like this are less about the reality of the situation and more about a bad vibe about the industry, and venting. I think we’ve all been in a situation where “doing a good job” meant moving a little faster than we think is appropriate. These pressures add up, and I don’t think it’s totally unreasonable that some folks who witness things too far on that end of the spectrum might scream out into the void. I don’t think it generally comes from a place of disrespect. In fact I feel like it comes from a place of feeling like doing good work is important. If i get it in person though, it does generally come from folks who think they’re better than me, which I agree is disrespectful.