6 ms·

Jugaad takes agile to the extreme (2020)

shmde 4y ago
Jugaad is just redneck engineering[1] but for Indians . [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/redneckengineering https://old.reddit.com/r/redneckengineering
cratermoon 4y ago
I thought Extreme Programming was the original extreme agility.
- ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
  There are probably many ways to do one thing. I love XP primarily for the box of procedures and tools. Which is the contrast to jugaad where there are no methods or tools.
SanjayMehta 4y ago
First time I've seen this in the context of software development. "Jugaad" is hard to translate: it's usually associated with hacking up a cheap replacement for something expensive. Roughly translates to "we'll manage something." Some examples: 1. A fruitpicker made out of a 2 litre plastic bottle whose base has been cut to form a claw. 2. A mobile water dispenser made from a can mounted on a trolley, with a tap operated using a bicycle cable.
- SanjayMehta 4y ago
  1. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7ib5-eYreHU https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7ib5-eYreHU 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDejH09_0to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDejH09_0to
- ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
  > 1. A fruitpicker made out of a 2 litre plastic bottle whose base has been cut to form a claw. Which is, I think, an excellent reminder to not be dogmatic about software delivery. Many projects never start (and hence much value isn't generated) because of theoretical disputes about how/how much/what analysis should pretext development, which development style and which tools and frameworks should be used.
gandalfgeek 4y ago
"Jugaad" is a cultural attitude that is hard to explain outside the Indian context. (Even literally, as the "d" sound in the word has no counterpart in English phonetics. It's similar to "dh" but not quite.) The closest literal translation would be "somehow, cheaply, without deep thought". There are class connotations. Jugaad is something forced onto people by poverty. It's hallmark is messy, janky and easily breakable setups that have been cobbled together by both necessity and lack of resources. Wealthier Indians would not turn to a "jugaad" solution for their needs. While the principles in the post (humility, openness, frugality) jive well with the Agile philosphy, I'm not so sure that "jugaad" is the idea I'd want my software to embody.
- thou3iou42o34 4y ago
  > There are class connotations. 'Move fast and break things' is the high-class version IMO.
- monster_group 4y ago
  >> "Jugaad" is a cultural attitude that is hard to explain outside the Indian context. There's nothing special about "Jugaad". It's same as white trash repair. All societies where resources are limited have some form of "Jugaad".
  - twic 4y ago
    It certainly sounds a lot like gambiarra.
    - gryn 4y ago
      if we're naming similar terms/concepts, there's 'systeme D' in french. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_D
  - cies 4y ago
    > It's same as white trash repair. Squatter's solution. A camping fix. One could say Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance gives it a little more cachet.
Brajeshwar 4y ago
Jugaad is a good thing if that is kept as just the start and things don't end in Jugaad. Personally, I'm not a Jugaad person. I won't suggest glorifying or encouraging Jugaad in any way except to get things started but a parallel plan to move back to normalcy/excellency should be in the work as soon as it starts. Too many a things have failed in India because it was Jugaad-ed for too long. Jugaad is an Indian thing and we love it for various reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugaad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugaad Edit/Update: I kinda usually narrates to the team I work with to -- experiment and jugaad like the Indians, have the discipline of the Japanese, and the finesse to deliver like the Germans. No cultural misappropriations intended and I'm still working on making that better with more cultures inclusion.
- jcoder 4y ago
  I don’t know that stereotyping more cultures is going to make this better
- pm90 4y ago
  Technically you aren’t appropriating but stereotyping (as a sibling points out) which is something that’s generally frowned upon today. EDIT: the rest of your comment is ok, just drop the last bit.
- Brajeshwar 4y ago
  Oh! Oh! I'm so sorry if I have hurt anyone's sentiments. I never had the intention. Please accept my apologies. I don't think there is a way to edit comments after a while. I saw this thread after I went away from my HN's burst activities.
dang 4y ago
Discussed at the time: Jugaad, an Indian Delivery Methodology - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459888 - Sept 2020 (63 comments)
rish1_2 4y ago
Jugaad is basically a mother of necessity due to lack of industrialization. It is unnecessarily fantasized into a positive light. Startup culture may be described this way but the context is completely different and vision as well.
MajorBee 4y ago
I have grown to dislike "jugaad" solutions to problems (unless it is forced onto the problem through sheer necessity), mainly because -- if left unchecked -- it fosters a culture of doing just barely enough to meet minimum requirements and no adherence or even ambition to achieving excellence and craftsmanship. I recognize that jugaad solutions are usually not what people necessarily want to resort to, but are frequently adopted because of lack of viable alternatives. In such situations, more power to us / them! I'd call that being resourceful though. Aspiring to arrive to the jugaad solution to problems when better ways of doing it are within reach though, that's where I draw the line.
- ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
  > I have grown to dislike "jugaad" solutions to problems Maybe it takes an outsider's view to appreciate jugaad. I certainly didn't on my first encounter. > no adherence or even ambition to achieving excellence and craftsmanship I agree - jugaad isn't the place for planned evolution, so skills that transcend the immediate needs for delivery never form. > Aspiring to arrive to the jugaad solution to problems when better ways of doing it are within reach though, that's where I draw the line. I think that most developers in India aren't even aware of the jugaad methodology, it's just the way things are done. When I was first exposed to jugaad I mistook it for sloppiness, but it turned out that both deliverables and the organisational setup itself is extremely anti-fragile: it's always easy to add or remove a part, although refactoring is hard.
  - pm90 4y ago
    Heh, this is an interesting perspective and Im realizing some assumptions Ive come to rely on. When designing a system or writing code, my instinct is to write it in a way that makes it clear, easy to work with and change down the road, because Ive seen code that is not structured this way and working with it is hell. I consider myself somewhat lucky to have worked in teams that allow for this. If however I wasn’t fortunate enough, or just not paid enough even, or the work culture didn’t exist or was purely transactional, I would likely change my approach to fit that situation.
- 4y ago
gautamdivgi 4y ago
Please don't do Jugaad. I haven't met a single software engineer from India who thinks Jugaad is a good thing. It's not. If it's done it's meant to surmount bureaucratic or financial hurdles, not as a software development methodology.
- stonecharioteer 4y ago
  I know a bunch of fellow Indian Devs who tlpride their Jugaad code and they're all horrible developers. Never do Jugaad.
  - SanjayMehta 4y ago
    Stackexchange+Google = Jugaad
stonecharioteer 4y ago
Please no. Every dev I know who fantasizes about the Jugaadness of their code is an idiot. Don't be like them.
rhuru 4y ago
Jugaad is basically what you do when forces more powerful than you wont let you do the right thing. Jugaad must be despised and not celebrated.
rajatsx 4y ago
I think Jugaad is quite similar to what Jake Knapp suggested in his book "Sprint". https://www.amazon.in/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/150112174X https://www.amazon.in/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/15...
pfoof 4y ago
Sounds like it might work for MVP but not in the long term scaling of a product. Let's say you use Wordpress + plugins to make a quick MVP but your target is enterprise scalable CRM application with a lot of custom forms. * Humility - yes it works now * Openness - let's rewrite everyrhing now from scratch * Frugality - rewriting is far from small expense
captainmuon 4y ago
Reminds me of the Chinese "chabudou" meaning "almost" or "not much missing". This attitude is painful and costly in hardware development - you save money and time now, but it costs you a lot more in the long run (e.g. support and RMA costs). But it is in software development where I found it really devastating. Things like people not using version control but creating lots of "bak" and "copy" files. Using tools from hacking boards on your own software because we don't bother making a proper build. Unit tests are seen as a waste of time. API design is seen as an academic luxury. I mean, I am all for agile. And for building MVPs without unneccessary abstractions and fluff. And heroic hacks that save the day. But "good enough" or "duct tape" should never become your main development methodology.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
duckydude20 4y ago
imo, i can compare it to laziness. xp is all about being lazy. but the context matters here. one lazy is just coping pasting stuff. other is drying as you go. i have already written this line, why am i reapting it again. let me dry it. extract it, so next time i need not. no two lines in my code should match. if they do extract. i am lazy here. cause i don't want to copy paste next time. i am lazy and will just dry. second lazy is more what lazy means.
distcs 4y ago
At first I thought this article was going to be a parody. But as I kept reading I cannot believe that this article is actually serious! I am very doubtful if the said properties of "jugaad" in this article are correct. I don't see any references that establish the meaning of "jugaad" for us! Right now we just have to take the author's word for it. Maybe someone from India here can correct me but if I see Wikipedia "jugaad" seems to be the Indian version of "hack". A hack can sometimes be good but I know for sure a whole working product real people rely on should not be made out of hacks (no matter how much frugality it brings to innovation). I am getting really worried now that in another 5 years we are going to have "jugaad consultants" and "jugaad certifications" telling us how to develop software. Sounds far-fetched? Think again! 20 years back I would have never imagined in my wildest dreams that there would be such creatures as "agile consultants" telling us to play "planning poker" and assign fibonacci numbers to our "stories"!
- 4silvertooth 4y ago
  Jugaad would be same as Redneck Engineering.
JustLurking2022 4y ago
Having worked in companies with a variety of skill levels, I find the higher skill you go, the less hacked together things get. While I honestly don't think Agile has to stand in opposition to good design principles, most treat it as though it does in practice. Whereas in less Agile orgs, I've worked with 20 year old systems that are still maintainable and fulfill their purpose well, in Agile orgs it feels like every system more than a couple years old has become spaghetti. I can't 100% vouch for causality - as I said, the skill differences between the average developer in some of these orgs are immense, but it says something to me that all the more talented companies I've worked in tended not to go down the "fast and hacky is fine if you iterate" path.
- qwerty456127 4y ago
  > in Agile orgs it feels like every system more than a couple years old has become spaghetti. You can't expect a "modern web" app to survive this long. Chances are it will become unbuildable (because of the dependency hell) much faster.
  - JustLurking2022 4y ago
    I never said anything about the type of apps, and the issues had little or nothing to do with dependency obsolescence.
pshirshov 4y ago
> Humility: use whatever works without prejudice And then nothing works because of the combinatoric explosion and very low average quality of a library. Then it takes a team of 20 to maintain a relatively simple project which manages to employ spring, guice, akka, cats and zio at the same time. Then the business closes because the funding is exhausted, product is too unstable and demands are not met. We prefer to choose the libraries wise.

Jugaad is just redneck engineering[1] but for Indians . [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/redneckengineering https://old.reddit.com/r/redneckengineering

cratermoon 4y ago

I thought Extreme Programming was the original extreme agility.

ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
There are probably many ways to do one thing. I love XP primarily for the box of procedures and tools. Which is the contrast to jugaad where there are no methods or tools.

SanjayMehta 4y ago

First time I've seen this in the context of software development. "Jugaad" is hard to translate: it's usually associated with hacking up a cheap replacement for something expensive. Roughly translates to "we'll manage something." Some examples: 1. A fruitpicker made out of a 2 litre plastic bottle whose base has been cut to form a claw. 2. A mobile water dispenser made from a can mounted on a trolley, with a tap operated using a bicycle cable.

SanjayMehta 4y ago
1. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7ib5-eYreHU https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7ib5-eYreHU 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDejH09_0to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDejH09_0to
ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
> 1. A fruitpicker made out of a 2 litre plastic bottle whose base has been cut to form a claw. Which is, I think, an excellent reminder to not be dogmatic about software delivery. Many projects never start (and hence much value isn't generated) because of theoretical disputes about how/how much/what analysis should pretext development, which development style and which tools and frameworks should be used.

gandalfgeek 4y ago

"Jugaad" is a cultural attitude that is hard to explain outside the Indian context. (Even literally, as the "d" sound in the word has no counterpart in English phonetics. It's similar to "dh" but not quite.) The closest literal translation would be "somehow, cheaply, without deep thought". There are class connotations. Jugaad is something forced onto people by poverty. It's hallmark is messy, janky and easily breakable setups that have been cobbled together by both necessity and lack of resources. Wealthier Indians would not turn to a "jugaad" solution for their needs. While the principles in the post (humility, openness, frugality) jive well with the Agile philosphy, I'm not so sure that "jugaad" is the idea I'd want my software to embody.

thou3iou42o34 4y ago
> There are class connotations. 'Move fast and break things' is the high-class version IMO.
monster_group 4y ago
>> "Jugaad" is a cultural attitude that is hard to explain outside the Indian context. There's nothing special about "Jugaad". It's same as white trash repair. All societies where resources are limited have some form of "Jugaad".
- twic 4y ago
  It certainly sounds a lot like gambiarra.
  - gryn 4y ago
    if we're naming similar terms/concepts, there's 'systeme D' in french. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_D
- cies 4y ago
  > It's same as white trash repair. Squatter's solution. A camping fix. One could say Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance gives it a little more cachet.

Brajeshwar 4y ago

Jugaad is a good thing if that is kept as just the start and things don't end in Jugaad. Personally, I'm not a Jugaad person. I won't suggest glorifying or encouraging Jugaad in any way except to get things started but a parallel plan to move back to normalcy/excellency should be in the work as soon as it starts. Too many a things have failed in India because it was Jugaad-ed for too long. Jugaad is an Indian thing and we love it for various reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugaad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugaad Edit/Update: I kinda usually narrates to the team I work with to -- experiment and jugaad like the Indians, have the discipline of the Japanese, and the finesse to deliver like the Germans. No cultural misappropriations intended and I'm still working on making that better with more cultures inclusion.

jcoder 4y ago
I don’t know that stereotyping more cultures is going to make this better
pm90 4y ago
Technically you aren’t appropriating but stereotyping (as a sibling points out) which is something that’s generally frowned upon today. EDIT: the rest of your comment is ok, just drop the last bit.
Brajeshwar 4y ago
Oh! Oh! I'm so sorry if I have hurt anyone's sentiments. I never had the intention. Please accept my apologies. I don't think there is a way to edit comments after a while. I saw this thread after I went away from my HN's burst activities.

dang 4y ago

Discussed at the time: Jugaad, an Indian Delivery Methodology - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459888 - Sept 2020 (63 comments)

rish1_2 4y ago

Jugaad is basically a mother of necessity due to lack of industrialization. It is unnecessarily fantasized into a positive light. Startup culture may be described this way but the context is completely different and vision as well.

MajorBee 4y ago

I have grown to dislike "jugaad" solutions to problems (unless it is forced onto the problem through sheer necessity), mainly because -- if left unchecked -- it fosters a culture of doing just barely enough to meet minimum requirements and no adherence or even ambition to achieving excellence and craftsmanship. I recognize that jugaad solutions are usually not what people necessarily want to resort to, but are frequently adopted because of lack of viable alternatives. In such situations, more power to us / them! I'd call that being resourceful though. Aspiring to arrive to the jugaad solution to problems when better ways of doing it are within reach though, that's where I draw the line.

ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
> I have grown to dislike "jugaad" solutions to problems Maybe it takes an outsider's view to appreciate jugaad. I certainly didn't on my first encounter. > no adherence or even ambition to achieving excellence and craftsmanship I agree - jugaad isn't the place for planned evolution, so skills that transcend the immediate needs for delivery never form. > Aspiring to arrive to the jugaad solution to problems when better ways of doing it are within reach though, that's where I draw the line. I think that most developers in India aren't even aware of the jugaad methodology, it's just the way things are done. When I was first exposed to jugaad I mistook it for sloppiness, but it turned out that both deliverables and the organisational setup itself is extremely anti-fragile: it's always easy to add or remove a part, although refactoring is hard.
- pm90 4y ago
  Heh, this is an interesting perspective and Im realizing some assumptions Ive come to rely on. When designing a system or writing code, my instinct is to write it in a way that makes it clear, easy to work with and change down the road, because Ive seen code that is not structured this way and working with it is hell. I consider myself somewhat lucky to have worked in teams that allow for this. If however I wasn’t fortunate enough, or just not paid enough even, or the work culture didn’t exist or was purely transactional, I would likely change my approach to fit that situation.
4y ago

gautamdivgi 4y ago

Please don't do Jugaad. I haven't met a single software engineer from India who thinks Jugaad is a good thing. It's not. If it's done it's meant to surmount bureaucratic or financial hurdles, not as a software development methodology.

stonecharioteer 4y ago
I know a bunch of fellow Indian Devs who tlpride their Jugaad code and they're all horrible developers. Never do Jugaad.
- SanjayMehta 4y ago
  Stackexchange+Google = Jugaad

stonecharioteer 4y ago

Please no. Every dev I know who fantasizes about the Jugaadness of their code is an idiot. Don't be like them.

rhuru 4y ago

Jugaad is basically what you do when forces more powerful than you wont let you do the right thing. Jugaad must be despised and not celebrated.

rajatsx 4y ago

I think Jugaad is quite similar to what Jake Knapp suggested in his book "Sprint". https://www.amazon.in/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/150112174X https://www.amazon.in/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/15...

pfoof 4y ago

Sounds like it might work for MVP but not in the long term scaling of a product. Let's say you use Wordpress + plugins to make a quick MVP but your target is enterprise scalable CRM application with a lot of custom forms. * Humility - yes it works now * Openness - let's rewrite everyrhing now from scratch * Frugality - rewriting is far from small expense

captainmuon 4y ago

Reminds me of the Chinese "chabudou" meaning "almost" or "not much missing". This attitude is painful and costly in hardware development - you save money and time now, but it costs you a lot more in the long run (e.g. support and RMA costs). But it is in software development where I found it really devastating. Things like people not using version control but creating lots of "bak" and "copy" files. Using tools from hacking boards on your own software because we don't bother making a proper build. Unit tests are seen as a waste of time. API design is seen as an academic luxury. I mean, I am all for agile. And for building MVPs without unneccessary abstractions and fluff. And heroic hacks that save the day. But "good enough" or "duct tape" should never become your main development methodology.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

duckydude20 4y ago

imo, i can compare it to laziness. xp is all about being lazy. but the context matters here. one lazy is just coping pasting stuff. other is drying as you go. i have already written this line, why am i reapting it again. let me dry it. extract it, so next time i need not. no two lines in my code should match. if they do extract. i am lazy here. cause i don't want to copy paste next time. i am lazy and will just dry. second lazy is more what lazy means.

distcs 4y ago

At first I thought this article was going to be a parody. But as I kept reading I cannot believe that this article is actually serious! I am very doubtful if the said properties of "jugaad" in this article are correct. I don't see any references that establish the meaning of "jugaad" for us! Right now we just have to take the author's word for it. Maybe someone from India here can correct me but if I see Wikipedia "jugaad" seems to be the Indian version of "hack". A hack can sometimes be good but I know for sure a whole working product real people rely on should not be made out of hacks (no matter how much frugality it brings to innovation). I am getting really worried now that in another 5 years we are going to have "jugaad consultants" and "jugaad certifications" telling us how to develop software. Sounds far-fetched? Think again! 20 years back I would have never imagined in my wildest dreams that there would be such creatures as "agile consultants" telling us to play "planning poker" and assign fibonacci numbers to our "stories"!

4silvertooth 4y ago
Jugaad would be same as Redneck Engineering.

JustLurking2022 4y ago

Having worked in companies with a variety of skill levels, I find the higher skill you go, the less hacked together things get. While I honestly don't think Agile has to stand in opposition to good design principles, most treat it as though it does in practice. Whereas in less Agile orgs, I've worked with 20 year old systems that are still maintainable and fulfill their purpose well, in Agile orgs it feels like every system more than a couple years old has become spaghetti. I can't 100% vouch for causality - as I said, the skill differences between the average developer in some of these orgs are immense, but it says something to me that all the more talented companies I've worked in tended not to go down the "fast and hacky is fine if you iterate" path.

qwerty456127 4y ago
> in Agile orgs it feels like every system more than a couple years old has become spaghetti. You can't expect a "modern web" app to survive this long. Chances are it will become unbuildable (because of the dependency hell) much faster.
- JustLurking2022 4y ago
  I never said anything about the type of apps, and the issues had little or nothing to do with dependency obsolescence.

pshirshov 4y ago

> Humility: use whatever works without prejudice And then nothing works because of the combinatoric explosion and very low average quality of a library. Then it takes a team of 20 to maintain a relatively simple project which manages to employ spring, guice, akka, cats and zio at the same time. Then the business closes because the funding is exhausted, product is too unstable and demands are not met. We prefer to choose the libraries wise.