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We can't prove that humans do actual reasoning, but we can be relatively certain that the current models don't (yes, I know there are some who claim otherwise,
by danShumway 4y ago
We can't prove that humans do actual reasoning, but we can be relatively certain that the current models don't (yes, I know there are some who claim otherwise, but it's just not particularly convincing).
The debate over whether or not "reasoning" is just an emergent process isn't necessarily a bad one. But if it is an emergent process, there's little evidence that AlphaCode has emerged it. If "reasoning" does just boil down to repetition, then humans are repeating patterns on a much deeper and more sophisticated level than these models are, and it's still worth questioning if the model's current approaches and the strategies we're using to build AI will be good enough to get to that level of mimicry on their own without a lot more innovation.
Philosophical zombies and perfect imitations of humans are interesting and useful thought experiments, but it's not necessary to prove that humans have qualia/reason in order to prove that much simpler algorithms and statistical methodologies do not, at least not at their current scale. And from a practical perspective, the distinction does matter, because we're trying to develop practical tools and it's useful to have a rough understanding of what the current models are and aren't capable of -- ie, they're not currently capable of explaining why they actually made certain decisions. That affects the way that we use them as practical tools.
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I guess if it helps, sub out "actual reasoning" for "pattern matching to such an advanced degree that it can generate consistent responses that look like reasoning, and that are useful in the real-world as real-world explanations for why a choice was made, and that (importantly) can be communicated to humans, built upon, affirmed, or corrected in real-time." In other words, if non-pattern-matching logic/reason doesn't exist, fine, it could very well be an abstraction or an emergent property. But the machine isn't good enough at pretending to have that, and that limits its usefulness to scenarios where you don't care about it being able to imitate "actual reasoning".
As an analogy: folders don't exist on your computer; it's all ultimately just bits on the drive and lookup tables. But there is still a really big practical difference between an operating system that has a hierarchical filesystem and an operating system that doesn't. In other words, abstractions can be purely imaginary, and it can still be useful to distinguish between things that adhere to those abstractions and things that don't.
Similarly, even if "actual reasoning" is a made-up abstraction, there's still a big difference between an AI that can explain why a decision was reached and an AI that can't -- even if both AIs ultimately end up working the same way under the hood. As far as I can tell, AlphaCode is a fairly long ways away from hitting that point where we can even pretend to ourselves that it's thinking about what it's doing.
- AndrewKemendo 4y ago>it's still worth questioning if the model's current approaches and the strategies we're using to build AI will be good enough to get to that level of mimicry on their own without a lot more innovation Literally, and I mean Literally, nobody who is an AI practitioner, academic or philosopher (including myself) would disagree with this. What/who is making this claim?
- danShumway 4y agoWe might be arguing past each other. I don't know any (serious, at least in my mind) AI researchers that would make that claim, no. But it is a distinction that is poorly communicated to ordinary people who use these models, and most of the time that you encounter "how do we know that humans reason" in the wild in non-researcher contexts, it usually is being used to argue that we just need to throw more processing power at models and get more data into them -- or to paper over the real criticism that the current generative models that are available to ordinary people are not useful for tasks that require something approximating "actual reasoning." It's a hard thing to talk about, because I recognize that it is absolutely unfair to criticize AI researchers that are not making these arguments in the first place, but also recognize that pointing out this kind of distinction is absolutely necessary for the general public on a public forum and that it is important to continue to hammer home the practical difference between pattern-matching and reasoning in current models. I don't know how to walk that line other than to point out that trynewideas's comment was reasonable and that attacking it from a philosophical perspective misses the point of what they're saying. But I don't mean to imply that researchers are wrong or misinformed about the state of AI, I'm just pointing out that the philosophical distinction doesn't really change anything about the practical argument (since non-researchers also frequent HN).
- AndrewKemendo 4y agoThat's fair. Thanks for the write up.