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> imagine fighting for your life against a sharp hook caught in your mouth until you give in to pain and exhaustion and then die of asphyxiation and/or being be

by dmix 4y ago

> imagine fighting for your life against a sharp hook caught in your mouth until you give in to pain and exhaustion and then die of asphyxiation and/or being beat and dehydrated Maybe I’m not a very compassionate person but its hard to appreciate if fish really are significantly beyond primitive levels of cognition (with obvious exceptions for dolphins, whales, and to a lesser extent sharks). Most of them would never think twice about murdering thousands to propagate their own species. Such is the fundamental nature of life we all were born into. The fact it’s an asphyxiation over ice over an hour vs being eaten alive in nature isn’t much of a big difference. But maybe like lobsters there’s a middle ground? The shark fin thing is clear bad idea but calling out fishing in general probably won’t win you many supporters.

lamontcg 4y ago
I'm trying to find words, but it is a bit weird seeing people being so compassionate about an apex predator. I'd lead instead with the fact that fishing is largely an ecological disaster. It is like the argument against eating meat based entirely on killing being bad, but we can see that killing happens all over the place in nature. However, the problem is that we've gotten way too good at killing and need to practice a lot more restraint.
- KMag 4y ago
  > I'm trying to find words, but it is a bit weird seeing people being so compassionate about an apex predator. Humans are the most apex of apex predators... I hope that doesn't disqualify us from deserving compassion.
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    Yeah, that would be why words are nearly impossible in these kinds of subjects.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> hard to see anything significantly beyond reptile-brain But fish clearly experience pain and possibly fear: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish “Dr Lynne Sneddon, with her colleagues, Braithwaite, and Gentle, were the first to discover nociceptors (pain receptors) in fish. She stated that fish demonstrate pain-related changes in physiology and behaviour, that are reduced by painkillers, and they show higher brain activity when painfully stimulated. Professor Victoria Braithwaite, in her book, Do Fish Feel Pain?, wrote that, fish, like birds and mammals, have a capacity for self-awareness, and can feel pain.” Donald Broom, Professor of Animal Welfare, Cambridge University, England, said that most mammalian pain systems are also found in fish, who can feel fear and have emotions which are controlled in the fish brain in areas anatomically different but functionally very similar to those in mammals.
namirez 4y ago
- rayiner 4y ago
KMag 4y ago
> Most of them would never think twice about murdering thousands to propagate their own species. Such is the fundamental nature of life we all were born into But if part of your reasoning for not extending compassion/humane treatment to another creature is based on the degree to which it appears to extend compassion/humane treatment to other creatures... that would seem to imply we should extend less compassion to you vs. humans who extend more compassion to these same creatures, right? I'm not suggesting that we treat you worse than other people, but rather suggest that this line of reasoning might need to be reconsidered. That is, your rule seems to put you at a disadvantage if applied universally. Am I missing something? It's against my base instincts, but the older I get, the more I try to extend compassion unconditionally. Among other things, I find it just makes me a calmer person. YMMV.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  > It's against my base instincts Why is this against your base instincts? It’s quite the opposite for me so I’m curious how that developed in you.
  - KMag 4y ago
    I'm naturally less compassionate towards mean/cruel/"evil" people, or to be honest, people I just dislike for less reasonable reasons. It takes mental effort for me to attempt to feel as much compassion for all people equally.
nix23 4y ago
I always wonder if aliens would think the same about humans -> primitive level of cognition. Just because a living thing is so different then we are means just nothing, and mark them as "primitive cognition" only shows our own lack of cognition, examples for completely misunderstood animals (in the past) are Wales and Sharks...and wonder wonder they life in a total different world then we are.
bobbylarrybobby 4y ago
Even the most primitive levels of cognition lead animals to feel fear and fight for their lives. That's one of the first things cognition did.

by dmix 4y ago

lamontcg 4y ago

I'm trying to find words, but it is a bit weird seeing people being so compassionate about an apex predator. I'd lead instead with the fact that fishing is largely an ecological disaster. It is like the argument against eating meat based entirely on killing being bad, but we can see that killing happens all over the place in nature. However, the problem is that we've gotten way too good at killing and need to practice a lot more restraint.

KMag 4y ago
> I'm trying to find words, but it is a bit weird seeing people being so compassionate about an apex predator. Humans are the most apex of apex predators... I hope that doesn't disqualify us from deserving compassion.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  Yeah, that would be why words are nearly impossible in these kinds of subjects.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

> hard to see anything significantly beyond reptile-brain But fish clearly experience pain and possibly fear: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish “Dr Lynne Sneddon, with her colleagues, Braithwaite, and Gentle, were the first to discover nociceptors (pain receptors) in fish. She stated that fish demonstrate pain-related changes in physiology and behaviour, that are reduced by painkillers, and they show higher brain activity when painfully stimulated. Professor Victoria Braithwaite, in her book, Do Fish Feel Pain?, wrote that, fish, like birds and mammals, have a capacity for self-awareness, and can feel pain.” Donald Broom, Professor of Animal Welfare, Cambridge University, England, said that most mammalian pain systems are also found in fish, who can feel fear and have emotions which are controlled in the fish brain in areas anatomically different but functionally very similar to those in mammals.

namirez 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

KMag 4y ago

> Most of them would never think twice about murdering thousands to propagate their own species. Such is the fundamental nature of life we all were born into But if part of your reasoning for not extending compassion/humane treatment to another creature is based on the degree to which it appears to extend compassion/humane treatment to other creatures... that would seem to imply we should extend less compassion to you vs. humans who extend more compassion to these same creatures, right? I'm not suggesting that we treat you worse than other people, but rather suggest that this line of reasoning might need to be reconsidered. That is, your rule seems to put you at a disadvantage if applied universally. Am I missing something? It's against my base instincts, but the older I get, the more I try to extend compassion unconditionally. Among other things, I find it just makes me a calmer person. YMMV.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> It's against my base instincts Why is this against your base instincts? It’s quite the opposite for me so I’m curious how that developed in you.
- KMag 4y ago
  I'm naturally less compassionate towards mean/cruel/"evil" people, or to be honest, people I just dislike for less reasonable reasons. It takes mental effort for me to attempt to feel as much compassion for all people equally.

nix23 4y ago

I always wonder if aliens would think the same about humans -> primitive level of cognition. Just because a living thing is so different then we are means just nothing, and mark them as "primitive cognition" only shows our own lack of cognition, examples for completely misunderstood animals (in the past) are Wales and Sharks...and wonder wonder they life in a total different world then we are.

bobbylarrybobby 4y ago

Even the most primitive levels of cognition lead animals to feel fear and fight for their lives. That's one of the first things cognition did.