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> And I don't know about you, but I'm immensely enjoying WeWork's fall. It never made any sense, and since the wheels came off before the IPO, it's not retail i

> And I don't know about you, but I'm immensely enjoying WeWork's fall. It never made any sense, and since the wheels came off before the IPO, it's not retail investors who are taking the loss here. I agree with everything else, but I'm not a fan of this modern era of schadenfreude that seems to be ever present on tech sites. Theranos and WeWork were certainly fraudulent enough to laugh at, but it's created this effect of fraud-voyeurism that feels more tabloid than news; more celebrity gossip than business news. It also encourages shallow misunderstandings. Real estate can be a profitable business, and certainly many developers turn a profit by reasonably financing and pricing their offerings. But a lot of people are opining about WeWork being unprofitable. Unprofitability is not the same as an exaggerated market cap. Still, I hope Theranos and WeWork are good, cautionary tales of the downsides of easy money.

wpietri 4y ago
You may not be a fan, but that's not going to stop me. I have spent years having to endure the horseshit from places like Theranos, WeWork, and the entire cryptocurrency industry. I knew it was horseshit. The people spouting it could have known it was horseshit if they had bothered, but they did what was in their short-term interests without regard to harm to others. I am going to enjoy seeing them get whatever paltry and belated comeuppance that karma visits upon them. If they ever suffer as much pain as they've inflicted, I might change my tune, so feel free to come back to me then. But in the meantime, I will enjoy whatever sense of justice served I can extract.
- arbol 4y ago
  How exactly have you had to endure anything from these companies other than voluntarily reading about them?
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    Was it voluntarily, or was it the fraudsters polluting the news channels (such as this site) with their horseshit as a result/part of the hype they built around itself?
    - wpietri 4y ago
      For sure. The whole "yet you participate in society" [1] retort doesn't impress me. Is my participation in society, in my profession, in my industry voluntary? In the sense that I have chosen not to fuck off to a remote cabin and live via backbreaking subsistence agriculture, sure. But I don't think I should have to cede my life, both professional and intellectual, every time fraudsters come around. [1] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...
      - arbol 4y ago
        > I have spent years having to endure the horseshit from places like Theranos You don't need to read the articles. Your sense of mistreatment seems out of proportion.
bobthepanda 4y ago
The issue I have is that both were not really tech companies but rode frothy tech hype and marketed themselves as such. Apps and pretty websites, by themselves, do not magically make a sector more profitable, and that era was peak “everything needs to be disrupted by tech.” WeWork is unprofitable, but mostly because we’ve known for hundreds of years that paying long term liabilities (e.g. leases) with short term funding is a model that quickly goes belly up.
- wpietri 4y ago
  You are claiming that Theranos, which claimed to be using novel technology to revolutionize medical diagnostics, was not a tech company? That seems very "no true scotsman" to me.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    Tech, and biotech, have one big major difference, namely the FDA and other equivalent regulatory agencies, which have strict standards and approval timelines measured in years. You see this in the differences in their balance sheets and valuations, and biotech is not generally part of the tech conversation from an investment perspective.
benjaminwootton 4y ago
People had to endure the hero worship of people like Adam Neuman and SBF on the way up. Being as some people called it out as a bubble on the way up, they are probably entitled to a little bit of ‘schad when the wheels come off.
- fragmede 4y ago
  Except Neumann's a billionaire and isn't involved with WeWork anymore after all that, so I'm not sure there's even that much to be had. What's left is the little people who eked by to get a job at WeWork and then got boned by Neuman as well.
  - rchaud 4y ago
    The schadenfreude is reserved for the geniuses at A16z and other 'vibes' VCs that continue to throw money at him.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    The best heist Neumann pulled was blackmailing SoftBank into buying out his WeWork shares. It was fairly obvious the musical chairs had stopped, and yet he managed to sell his standing-only-spot at chair-valuation. SoftBank should be sued by its investors over that farce.
    - fragmede 4y ago
      The bit with him renaming the company We, while owning we.com and then leasing it back to the company was a pretty good one though.
  - mnky9800n 4y ago
    don't worry, he will lease you your next flat. You don't deserve to own it: https://nypost.com/2022/08/15/wework-founder-adam-neumann-scores-huge-investment-for-new-venture/ https://nypost.com/2022/08/15/wework-founder-adam-neumann-sc...
mbesto 4y ago
> but I'm not a fan of this modern era of schadenfreude that seems to be ever present on tech sites. I equally don't like the schadenfreude as you, but I also equally don't like the propping up of ridiculous business models like WeWork and Juiceros of the world that the media does. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
- Karrot_Kream 4y ago
  I agree. I think these business models do more harm than good for the variety of actors involved with them (employees, equity holders, real estate, naive investors, etc.) I just find a sober look at why they're injurious is a lot more instructive than sneering schadenfreude.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    We can do both! I have written serious analyses and swear-loaded mockery. I will continue to do both, and more besides. You can too.
rchaud 4y ago
> but it's created this effect of fraud-voyeurism that feels more tabloid than news; more celebrity gossip than business news. Publicity giveth, publicity taketh away. The schadenfreude does not happen in a vaccuum. Silicon Valley is addicted to the Steve Jobs messiah narrative, which is why they constantly deify 'personality' CEOs like Holmes, Neumann, Kalanick, Musk, even out and out frauds like SBF. You do not see gloating about people getting busted for PPP fraud, because those are anonymous nobodies, that have not had a PR machine behind them pushing Galt-esque tales about their exploits and soapboxing their bizarre ideas about the future of millions, dreamed up from their NYC penthouse bubble. If you dress someone up as Superman, there will be chuckles when he's found out to be a guy in muscle suit wearing his underwear on the outside.
spaceman_2020 4y ago
I have an unpopular opinion that tech workers, especially in the west, are increasingly being perceived by everyone else like investment bankers or consultants were in the 90s (or forever, honestly). There's not a lot of clarity about what value they bring to the table (since the companies that pay their salaries are often unprofitable) and it's not always obvious what work they actually do (hence the prevailing meme that no one works at FAANG). Of course, the reality is that numerically, most tech workers don't work for FAANG or hot startups, but public perceptions are usually colored by the most visible subgroup, which happens to be overpaid startup bros.
- mnky9800n 4y ago
  i'll repost here the twitter worker who does nothing at work and i suppose now has been fired: https://www.theblaze.com/news/twitter-day-in-life-video https://www.theblaze.com/news/twitter-day-in-life-video forgive the link, i guess the original tiktok was deleted.
SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
I would have less “schadenfreude” if it wasn’t Saudi blood money being lit on fire. Happy to see oil money from Saudi Arabia being flushed down the toilet.

wpietri 4y ago

You may not be a fan, but that's not going to stop me. I have spent years having to endure the horseshit from places like Theranos, WeWork, and the entire cryptocurrency industry. I knew it was horseshit. The people spouting it could have known it was horseshit if they had bothered, but they did what was in their short-term interests without regard to harm to others. I am going to enjoy seeing them get whatever paltry and belated comeuppance that karma visits upon them. If they ever suffer as much pain as they've inflicted, I might change my tune, so feel free to come back to me then. But in the meantime, I will enjoy whatever sense of justice served I can extract.

arbol 4y ago
How exactly have you had to endure anything from these companies other than voluntarily reading about them?
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  Was it voluntarily, or was it the fraudsters polluting the news channels (such as this site) with their horseshit as a result/part of the hype they built around itself?
  - wpietri 4y ago
    For sure. The whole "yet you participate in society" [1] retort doesn't impress me. Is my participation in society, in my profession, in my industry voluntary? In the sense that I have chosen not to fuck off to a remote cabin and live via backbreaking subsistence agriculture, sure. But I don't think I should have to cede my life, both professional and intellectual, every time fraudsters come around. [1] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...
    - arbol 4y ago
      > I have spent years having to endure the horseshit from places like Theranos You don't need to read the articles. Your sense of mistreatment seems out of proportion.

bobthepanda 4y ago

The issue I have is that both were not really tech companies but rode frothy tech hype and marketed themselves as such. Apps and pretty websites, by themselves, do not magically make a sector more profitable, and that era was peak “everything needs to be disrupted by tech.” WeWork is unprofitable, but mostly because we’ve known for hundreds of years that paying long term liabilities (e.g. leases) with short term funding is a model that quickly goes belly up.

wpietri 4y ago
You are claiming that Theranos, which claimed to be using novel technology to revolutionize medical diagnostics, was not a tech company? That seems very "no true scotsman" to me.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Tech, and biotech, have one big major difference, namely the FDA and other equivalent regulatory agencies, which have strict standards and approval timelines measured in years. You see this in the differences in their balance sheets and valuations, and biotech is not generally part of the tech conversation from an investment perspective.

benjaminwootton 4y ago

People had to endure the hero worship of people like Adam Neuman and SBF on the way up. Being as some people called it out as a bubble on the way up, they are probably entitled to a little bit of ‘schad when the wheels come off.

fragmede 4y ago
Except Neumann's a billionaire and isn't involved with WeWork anymore after all that, so I'm not sure there's even that much to be had. What's left is the little people who eked by to get a job at WeWork and then got boned by Neuman as well.
- rchaud 4y ago
  The schadenfreude is reserved for the geniuses at A16z and other 'vibes' VCs that continue to throw money at him.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  The best heist Neumann pulled was blackmailing SoftBank into buying out his WeWork shares. It was fairly obvious the musical chairs had stopped, and yet he managed to sell his standing-only-spot at chair-valuation. SoftBank should be sued by its investors over that farce.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    The bit with him renaming the company We, while owning we.com and then leasing it back to the company was a pretty good one though.
- mnky9800n 4y ago
  don't worry, he will lease you your next flat. You don't deserve to own it: https://nypost.com/2022/08/15/wework-founder-adam-neumann-scores-huge-investment-for-new-venture/ https://nypost.com/2022/08/15/wework-founder-adam-neumann-sc...

mbesto 4y ago

> but I'm not a fan of this modern era of schadenfreude that seems to be ever present on tech sites. I equally don't like the schadenfreude as you, but I also equally don't like the propping up of ridiculous business models like WeWork and Juiceros of the world that the media does. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Karrot_Kream 4y ago
I agree. I think these business models do more harm than good for the variety of actors involved with them (employees, equity holders, real estate, naive investors, etc.) I just find a sober look at why they're injurious is a lot more instructive than sneering schadenfreude.
- wpietri 4y ago
  We can do both! I have written serious analyses and swear-loaded mockery. I will continue to do both, and more besides. You can too.

rchaud 4y ago

> but it's created this effect of fraud-voyeurism that feels more tabloid than news; more celebrity gossip than business news. Publicity giveth, publicity taketh away. The schadenfreude does not happen in a vaccuum. Silicon Valley is addicted to the Steve Jobs messiah narrative, which is why they constantly deify 'personality' CEOs like Holmes, Neumann, Kalanick, Musk, even out and out frauds like SBF. You do not see gloating about people getting busted for PPP fraud, because those are anonymous nobodies, that have not had a PR machine behind them pushing Galt-esque tales about their exploits and soapboxing their bizarre ideas about the future of millions, dreamed up from their NYC penthouse bubble. If you dress someone up as Superman, there will be chuckles when he's found out to be a guy in muscle suit wearing his underwear on the outside.

spaceman_2020 4y ago

I have an unpopular opinion that tech workers, especially in the west, are increasingly being perceived by everyone else like investment bankers or consultants were in the 90s (or forever, honestly). There's not a lot of clarity about what value they bring to the table (since the companies that pay their salaries are often unprofitable) and it's not always obvious what work they actually do (hence the prevailing meme that no one works at FAANG). Of course, the reality is that numerically, most tech workers don't work for FAANG or hot startups, but public perceptions are usually colored by the most visible subgroup, which happens to be overpaid startup bros.

mnky9800n 4y ago
i'll repost here the twitter worker who does nothing at work and i suppose now has been fired: https://www.theblaze.com/news/twitter-day-in-life-video https://www.theblaze.com/news/twitter-day-in-life-video forgive the link, i guess the original tiktok was deleted.

SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago

I would have less “schadenfreude” if it wasn’t Saudi blood money being lit on fire. Happy to see oil money from Saudi Arabia being flushed down the toilet.