4 ms·

The primary mechanism these things are spread by is water droplets in the air expelled from the nose and mouth. A sick person wearing a mask will expel more mo

by basch 4y ago

The primary mechanism these things are spread by is water droplets in the air expelled from the nose and mouth. A sick person wearing a mask will expel more moisture into the mask, and less into the air. None of this is binary. It's not sick or not sick. There is a viral load component, where a persons body can fight off a certain amount of virus.

endisneigh 4y ago
Someone sick should be staying home, not going into grocery stores with a mask on.
- jonahhorowitz 4y ago
  You're contagious for 2 days before you have symptoms. You should wear a mask if you're around other people.
  - basch 4y ago
    Not disagreeing. I am pointing out the mask is to block the spreader, moreso than shield the recipient.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    People should wear a mask if they’d like, yes. But ultimately social distancing and getting vaccinated is the best strategy.
- roflyear 4y ago
  Sure, if you KNOW you're sick. Often you are contagious without feeling sick. Or maybe you just feel a LITTLE sick but still go to the store.
- sn0wf1re 4y ago
  How else would they get food? Not everyone can afford to order in. Is your opinion that these people should just starve?
  - haswell 4y ago
    While I agree that the parent comment is making huge assumptions about delivery options people have access to (both for geographical and for cost reasons), there are options in the middle. The majority of stores (grocery and otherwise) introduced curbside pickup options early in the pandemic, which at least provides more options for someone who doesn't have access to or can't afford delivery, while removing or minimizing the time they need to spend in-store. Not a perfect solution, but the options are not "delivery or starve".
    - sn0wf1re 4y ago
      Can you provide a reference to a discount grocer (since you are replying to a comment about affordability) that offers curb-side or delivery without fee? I am not aware of any.
      - haswell 4y ago
        The moving of the goalposts aside (which were originally "order in or starve"), Target and Walmart are two major examples, since you specifically mentioned “discount”, and all of the major grocery stores in my metro area (Chicago, so YMMV) have a curbside pickup option. Some of them charge a service fee for pickups under $35, but from what I recall, the bigger chains do not. And with prices these days, you'd be hard pressed to do a grocery run that costs less than $35 unless you need a single item, but if you only need a single item, this is no longer a conversation about starving. As for free delivery, I believe some of them offer free delivery for orders over a certain size, but I was focused specifically on non-delivery options. Bottom line: there are many more options than “go in the store or starve”.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    Ideally you have enough food in your fridge to last without daily trips to the grocery store, so no, not starving.
    - sn0wf1re 4y ago
- farnsworth 4y ago
  Can't believe we're still arguing about whether pErSoNaL rEsPoNsIbIlItY will save us
- basch 4y ago
  I am not disagreeing. However, the premise of normal masks is primarily for sick people to not spread disease. "It is important to wear a mask or respirator when you are sick or caring for someone who is sick with COVID-19." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/about-face-coverings.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-si... "Wear a high-quality and well-fitting mask if you must be around others (for example: going to get tested), even in your home." https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/sick.html https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/sick.htm... Framing masking as protecting the wearer was done to psychologically make people care. People are more likely to care about themselves, than others.
VirusNewbie 4y ago
I guess I’m skeptical, isn’t the majority of covid spread through prolonged close contact? Running into a grocery store without a mask for fifteen minutes seems extremely low risk compared to other activities.
- basch 4y ago
  Is 1000 people expelling one breath, the same as one person expelling 1000 breaths? It has to do with ventilation too. Taller ceilings probably help. Lower humidity. Choir is probably a great example of something where closeness isnt the only factor. https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu...
- gernb 4y ago
  I recently got it via short contact (3 weeks ago, was positive until yesterday, still have a cough). I went to an amusement park. None of the people I was hanging out with had it nor tested positive before or after (they were all testing regularly) so the only other explanations are random people I passed at the park, food that was contaminated, or random covid virus in the air. Of course my getting it via short contact does not invalidate the idea that most of it is spread via prolonged contact. But, given I just caught it via short contact I'm not going to stop taking prevenative measures in situations with only short contacts.
ch4s3 4y ago
I was under the impression that droplets are only part of the picture and that sick people are in fact spraying tons of much small particles into the air as they breathe.
- basch 4y ago
  droplets and airborne is a somewhat arbitrary distinction pulled out of .. thin air. https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu... Whether the droplet/aerosol float through the air has to do with much more than particle size. "There was just one literally tiny problem: “The physics of it is all wrong,” Marr says. That much seemed obvious to her from everything she knew about how things move through air. Reality is far messier, with particles much larger than 5 microns staying afloat and behaving like aerosols, depending on heat, humidity, and airspeed."
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    That's not my point at all. I didn't make the droplet vs airborne distinction. I mean that the masks can and do stop some droplets and larger particles, but smaller particles pass through and around them readily. It seems like really small particles might be causing infections with newer variants. But I'm also not sure what we even know for sure about this at the moment. A lot of mask research has been don with modeling or lab setups to spray liquids through them. The narrower set of real world studies cast a lot of doubt on anything but N95s worn properly. So I'm not sure where that leaves us.
    - basch 4y ago
      That goes back to its not binary. Less viral load is less viral load. Masks are not a complete solution. At the end of the day the goal appears to be to reduce spread and reinfection to minimize the load on the hospital system.
      - ch4s3 4y ago

by basch 4y ago

endisneigh 4y ago

Someone sick should be staying home, not going into grocery stores with a mask on.

jonahhorowitz 4y ago
You're contagious for 2 days before you have symptoms. You should wear a mask if you're around other people.
- basch 4y ago
  Not disagreeing. I am pointing out the mask is to block the spreader, moreso than shield the recipient.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  People should wear a mask if they’d like, yes. But ultimately social distancing and getting vaccinated is the best strategy.
roflyear 4y ago
Sure, if you KNOW you're sick. Often you are contagious without feeling sick. Or maybe you just feel a LITTLE sick but still go to the store.
sn0wf1re 4y ago
How else would they get food? Not everyone can afford to order in. Is your opinion that these people should just starve?
- haswell 4y ago
  While I agree that the parent comment is making huge assumptions about delivery options people have access to (both for geographical and for cost reasons), there are options in the middle. The majority of stores (grocery and otherwise) introduced curbside pickup options early in the pandemic, which at least provides more options for someone who doesn't have access to or can't afford delivery, while removing or minimizing the time they need to spend in-store. Not a perfect solution, but the options are not "delivery or starve".
  - sn0wf1re 4y ago
    Can you provide a reference to a discount grocer (since you are replying to a comment about affordability) that offers curb-side or delivery without fee? I am not aware of any.
    - haswell 4y ago
      The moving of the goalposts aside (which were originally "order in or starve"), Target and Walmart are two major examples, since you specifically mentioned “discount”, and all of the major grocery stores in my metro area (Chicago, so YMMV) have a curbside pickup option. Some of them charge a service fee for pickups under $35, but from what I recall, the bigger chains do not. And with prices these days, you'd be hard pressed to do a grocery run that costs less than $35 unless you need a single item, but if you only need a single item, this is no longer a conversation about starving. As for free delivery, I believe some of them offer free delivery for orders over a certain size, but I was focused specifically on non-delivery options. Bottom line: there are many more options than “go in the store or starve”.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Ideally you have enough food in your fridge to last without daily trips to the grocery store, so no, not starving.
  - sn0wf1re 4y ago
farnsworth 4y ago
Can't believe we're still arguing about whether pErSoNaL rEsPoNsIbIlItY will save us
basch 4y ago
I am not disagreeing. However, the premise of normal masks is primarily for sick people to not spread disease. "It is important to wear a mask or respirator when you are sick or caring for someone who is sick with COVID-19." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/about-face-coverings.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-si... "Wear a high-quality and well-fitting mask if you must be around others (for example: going to get tested), even in your home." https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/sick.html https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/sick.htm... Framing masking as protecting the wearer was done to psychologically make people care. People are more likely to care about themselves, than others.

VirusNewbie 4y ago

I guess I’m skeptical, isn’t the majority of covid spread through prolonged close contact? Running into a grocery store without a mask for fifteen minutes seems extremely low risk compared to other activities.

basch 4y ago
Is 1000 people expelling one breath, the same as one person expelling 1000 breaths? It has to do with ventilation too. Taller ceilings probably help. Lower humidity. Choir is probably a great example of something where closeness isnt the only factor. https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu...
gernb 4y ago
I recently got it via short contact (3 weeks ago, was positive until yesterday, still have a cough). I went to an amusement park. None of the people I was hanging out with had it nor tested positive before or after (they were all testing regularly) so the only other explanations are random people I passed at the park, food that was contaminated, or random covid virus in the air. Of course my getting it via short contact does not invalidate the idea that most of it is spread via prolonged contact. But, given I just caught it via short contact I'm not going to stop taking prevenative measures in situations with only short contacts.

ch4s3 4y ago

I was under the impression that droplets are only part of the picture and that sick people are in fact spraying tons of much small particles into the air as they breathe.

basch 4y ago
droplets and airborne is a somewhat arbitrary distinction pulled out of .. thin air. https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu... Whether the droplet/aerosol float through the air has to do with much more than particle size. "There was just one literally tiny problem: “The physics of it is all wrong,” Marr says. That much seemed obvious to her from everything she knew about how things move through air. Reality is far messier, with particles much larger than 5 microns staying afloat and behaving like aerosols, depending on heat, humidity, and airspeed."
- ch4s3 4y ago
  That's not my point at all. I didn't make the droplet vs airborne distinction. I mean that the masks can and do stop some droplets and larger particles, but smaller particles pass through and around them readily. It seems like really small particles might be causing infections with newer variants. But I'm also not sure what we even know for sure about this at the moment. A lot of mask research has been don with modeling or lab setups to spray liquids through them. The narrower set of real world studies cast a lot of doubt on anything but N95s worn properly. So I'm not sure where that leaves us.
  - basch 4y ago
    That goes back to its not binary. Less viral load is less viral load. Masks are not a complete solution. At the end of the day the goal appears to be to reduce spread and reinfection to minimize the load on the hospital system.
    - ch4s3 4y ago