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This is interesting but I can't help but notice how intensely performative these kids are as well, at least how they're characterized in this article. They're w

This is interesting but I can't help but notice how intensely performative these kids are as well, at least how they're characterized in this article. They're wearing Carhartt (an unusual choice for a metropolis like NYC), reading Dostoyevski and gathering to "listen to the wind." I will say most teens are like this and I certainly was myself, but I hope they are careful not to cultivate their own "artisan" brand of snobbishness (as I also did as a young punk). One thread they're touching on that I think is healthy and good is the DIY aesthetic, and the resistance to tools and media that primarily serve to make you a passive consumer, and to choose and live ones values more consciously & proactively. These features are (or ate least were) prominent in the punk scene, but also in many other subcultures including many religious groups. I am glad to see "the kids" continuing to question & challenge and try to take more control of their own lives, so this is great in my opinion. A bit of pretentiousness is a small price to pay in my opinion.

heavyset_go 4y ago
To me, this feels like you're criticizing kids for being kids. You grew out of it, so will they. It also might be you projecting. It's entirely possible they genuinely enjoy their choice of clothing and literature and it's not a performance.
dieselgate 4y ago
Does one always risk a bit of "pretentiousness" if they act/live contrary to the "main stream"? Just by having a flip phone, for example, someone will be called a "hipster" or whatever name. It's like a group social phenomena or something - just by being vegetarian (or being more "pretentious" by being vegan) people experience this sort of stuff
- ravenstine 4y ago
  Basically, yes, because a lot of people don't really know what being pretentious or a hipster actually means. The passage of time has lead to both terms being misunderstood and simultaneously conflated. In order for someone to actually be pretentious, there has to be a pretense. Being purposefully non-mainstream doesn't make someone pretentious as much as a more normal individual would like to believe. Hipsters aren't necessarily pretentious, even when they have a pattern of rejecting the mainstream. A hipster might be pretentious if their image is disingenuous (ex. wearing some article they don't actually identify with, pooh-poohing something publicly while appreciating it secretly), but that doesn't have to describe all or most hipsters. I get called a hipster because I often reject or have no interest in many things that most people consider good on that basis alone. When something becomes mainstream, I like it less because I believe something going from unknown to mainstream is usually a bad sign, and that instinct is almost always right. Breaking Bad was way better until everyone started slobbering over it and chanted "get back to cooking meth bruh", and look how it ended. Such a long way for a ham sandwich. haha
  - Lammy 4y ago
    > a lot of people don't really know what being pretentious or a hipster actually means https://catandgirl.com/riddle-me-this/ https://catandgirl.com/riddle-me-this/
  - HardlyCurious 4y ago
    Rejection of the mainstream / establishment properties is the pretense. It isn't that you like something, it's that you don't want to be associated to some other things. And you don't want to be associated to those other things because of some pretense about what associating to those things means.
    - ravenstine 4y ago
      That's not a pretense. The word you're looking for is pretext. Rejecting the mainstream is completely a legitimate position on its own. The only way it can be a pretense is if it's done for appearance only. Well, maybe there are other ways, but that's the only one I can think of at the moment. Maybe this is confusing because of the phrase "false pretense", which is redundant and can lead to some people thinking that there's such a thing as a pretense that isn't false-ish.
      - HardlyCurious 4y ago
        My previous comment wasn't worded the best. At the end of the day, I think the pretentiousness comes from superiority signalling. When a vegan talks about how eating meat is wrong the implication is that they feel morally superior to those who eat meat. And when someone rejects things generally, as opposed to just liking their own things, it implies that those things they reject aren't worth consideration, and hence anyone who does has some inferior judgement or taste. The statement "I would never listen to disco music" implies there is something wrong with doing so, and hence something wrong with those who choose to. "I would never listen to disco music" is a pretentious statement.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    I've got a theory that the TV show Firefly is appreciated today because it got cancelled before it was popular; they quit when they were ahead and before popularity ruined it. But most Firefly fans seem to hate my theory.
- iechoz6H 4y ago
  Haha, how times have changed, I was a pretty hard core vegan between 1990 and 2003 and was much more likely to be called a cunt than pretentious!
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  "Flipsters", perhaps :)
cardamomo 4y ago
I think they're no more performative than other teenagers, who are almost developmentally predisposed to be preoccupied with in- and outgroup signaling.
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
> They're wearing Carhartt (an unusual choice for a metropolis like NYC), reading Dostoyevski and gathering to "listen to the wind." I don't know, to me it all seemed exceedingly genuine. If they're spending lots of time outside in parks—"rain or shine, even snow"—their clothing choices make sense. They like reading, and their reading material has made an impression (as good books are wont to do, especially for impressionable teenagers), such as by convincing them of the value of activities like "listening to the wind".
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  It’s genuine insofar as we have gone too far one way as a society and now people, even young people who have no concept of the old days, are exploring the opposite again. I guess it seems a bit pretentious since those of us who were around as young adults when mobiles and the internet took off, and then worked in the industries that made the current situation happen, realise there is a happy midpoint. “The only thing better than a flip phone is no phone?” I can’t roll my eyes enough. I dare say “our generation” started the idea of removing technology again and getting back some of the good old days.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    > “The only thing better than a flip phone is no phone?” I can’t roll my eyes enough. Yeah, but kids often say groan-worthy things, or have opinions that lack perspective. I still think she was being perfectly earnest.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  It's worth noting that Carhartt is currently hot as a fashion brand. Yes, really.
headbee 4y ago
Carhartt is a very trendy street wear brand in addition to their (still very trendy and brandy) workwear.
the-printer 4y ago
Carhartt often moonlights as a streetwear brand.
- actusual 4y ago
  They actually have a dedicated streetwear/hipper line called WIP (https://us.carhartt-wip.com/ https://us.carhartt-wip.com/)
  - the-printer 4y ago
    That’s what I was referring to.
    - operatingthetan 4y ago
      I'd suggest the vagueness of "often moonlights" indicated that you weren't aware of the sub-brand being a thing.
- okwubodu 4y ago
  "Streetwear" itself has a snobbish connotation as of late.
  - filmgirlcw 4y ago
    Streetwear has been associated with luxury/higher fashion/snobbery in the mainstream for at least a decade (though its influence both on and by high fashion goes back to the 90s). The biggest fashion trend of the 2010s that has extended into the 2020s was the rise of the streetwear and sneaker culture from the streets and into the mainstream, often at luxury price points.
  - the-printer 4y ago
    I don’t know what the nature of the culture is these days, but in hindsight, it’s always been.
themadturk 4y ago
I'm old and I love the Carhartt tee shirts I bought a few years ago...thick cotton, softened through wear and washing, the best shirts I've ever owned. These kids have good taste.
sdwr 4y ago
Didn't read the article, but I wish I had friends who made listening to the wind an activity growing up. There's a lot of performance any direction you take, surrendering time to the elements is a lovely little angle.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  Fear of coming across as performative has overall hindered my ability to coexist within certain subcultures. I wish I cared less about this and I admire people who manage to find cultural unity through performance.
  - LegitShady 4y ago
    at some point you have to realize the overwhelming majority of people you're worried about being judged by aren't people whose opinions you'd care about if they were offered to you, and that being an authentic you is more important than the judgement of strangers. A lot of people's lives could be way better if they internalized this.
    - soulofmischief 4y ago
      I like to remind myself that the world has done nothing for me.
aaroninsf 4y ago
Hottake: the author is effectively oblivious to the impact of the aesthetic scene and unable to filter its impact on contemporary youth culture.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  Considering this is a piece in the style section I find that almost impossible to believe. Seems much more likely that they're just being a bit dishonest about why these kids are "luddites" because it makes for a better story.
LarryMullins 4y ago
I think there's a selection bias here; the ones who are performative are more likely to cross paths with a NYTimes journalist than the ones who aren't. People who keep it low key don't often rise to the notice of others.
- ancientworldnow 4y ago
  Look up their parents. It's not a coincidence they crossed path with NY Times reporters looking to profile them. Nepotism teens doesn't have the same ring though.
  - dpflan 4y ago
    Nepoteenism.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Another interesting angle related to their coming from money—I don't have enough data to really even call it, well, data, but the limited glimpse I've had into properly upper-middle (as in the Fussell, social-class sense, not the "I make $130k/yr as a middle manager and live in a McMansion in a nice school district, so I call myself upper-middle class" sense) and upper classes' kids and schools, they're giving their kids phones way later than the public-school set. Like, 20% or less the ownership rate by 5th grade, I'd say. Nowhere near universal personal smartphone ownership by 8th grade, even, unlike the public schools, where nearly all the kids have one by then. But I'm mostly seeing a single school, so it may just be that that school operates in some kind of techphobic bubble, not that the better-off are generally exposing their kids to cell phones and the Internet way less than the middle-class and lower. ... then again, maybe what I'm seeing isn't a heavily biased sample, and that's exactly what's going on, and this article is a manifestation of a real tendency of the upper classes to curtail tech exposure for their kids, compared with the general population.
  - subsubzero 4y ago
    yeah I was wondering how a small group of say 5-8 teens made it to NYtimes. The paper tries to fool you to think these are just organic encounters that are part of a massive movement(anti-tech) when its really just hand picked people close to a friend of someone that works at the paper. Remember it was discovered this year the editorial desk of the NYtimes has a mandate that all stories must paint tech in a negative light.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
I picked up on this a few years ago and mentioned it briefly in Digital Vegan. What struck me while researching was that the accusation of "Luddite" is levelled mainly against older (Boomer, Gen-X/Z) people and comes from the same group. Whereas younger people, glorified as "digital natives" by our older group, actually have more critical attitude towards gratuitous connection and consumption. It made me realise that the mythologies of tech (an inevitable, ubiquitous force of progress and 'convenience' that we must slavishly follow or be "left behind") resides in my generation.
belfalas 4y ago
In many ways the article feels like it's documenting kids with the freedom to have an opinion. Looking at the pictures in the article, it feels like a pretty uniform demographic. And in New York City, no less. Also, they idolize Chris McCandless - he was also a child of privilege who wanted to reject society. Chris didn't have to die but he did because he went up to Alaska woefully unprepared. That doesn't make his death any less tragic, of course. I guess my point is that this phenomenon is not anything new, if anything we've just gotten for enough into the 21st century that the 1970s ethic is making a comeback.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > Also, they idolize Chris McCandless - he was also a child of privilege who wanted to reject society. Idolizing McCandless is such an odd thing; Alaska is filled with people who rejected their past lives like he did, but who didn't die because they had more humility and respect for the land.
  - poopiokaka 4y ago
    Lol I can’t imagine judging kids this hard. You’re doing great
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      His death wasn't a freak accident, it was a predictable consequence of him going into Alaska unprepared. He shot a moose and let it rot because he didn't know better and didn't bother to learn first. This was hubris; Alaska is not the place to fake it until you make it. Anyway, my critique of McCandless is mild, talk to some Alaskans if you want to hear some proper vitriolic criticism of him. I barely scratched the surface by accusing him of hubris. If you mean my criticism of teens idolizing McCandless, I don't know what to tell you. He isn't a good role model. There are obviously worse role models, but he isn't a good one.
      - poopiokaka 4y ago
a-dub 4y ago
it's the 2022 version of "kill your television" and i love it. in practice: i wonder how practical it is to survive as an adult without a smartphone. uber has decimated cabs and i don't think you can telephone for an uber. i wonder what else is unreachable/unworkable/etc...
- kritiko 4y ago
  In Brooklyn now, it's cheaper to use a car service than Uber/Lyft, so I think you could get by fine without those apps. Getting around without Google Maps would be pretty challenging, I think.
  - discardedrefuse 4y ago
    > Getting around without Google Maps would be pretty challenging, I think. I learned to drive before smartphones. I can assure you its very possible to find addresses without a phone. Heck, I still sometimes do it for fun! Nothing wrong with a little u-turn here or there.
    - rufus_foreman 4y ago
      Before smartphones I would use a street map, which were sold at every gas station. And if I was still having trouble, I would call for directions from a public pay phone, which were located on street corners every few blocks.
  - a-dub 4y ago
    just checked, chatgpt can give directions... reminds me of the old days when i used to text GOOGL for exact addresses
- SquareWheel 4y ago
  I don't carry a cellphone. The rates are atrocious in Canada, and I don't like being rung when I'm out and about. The biggest problem is 2-factor. Many services are starting to require it, which has led me to losing access to various accounts. Looking at you, Paypal. Otherwise, it's fine. I make a paper shopping list. I schedule meetings in advance, and show up at the expected time. Uber isn't even in my city so there's no loss there.
filmgirlcw 4y ago
>This is interesting but I can't help but notice how intensely performative these kids are as well, at least how they're characterized in this article. I mean, they are teenagers. I said this in a longer comment in this thread, but teenagers tend to be performative. That's sort of the point of growing up and finding yourself.
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
Anyone who thinks reading Dostoyevski is an acomplishment must be borderline illiterate*. None of his works are a hard read. Dostoyevski is the acomplishment, not the reader. Almost all fiction is a passive medium, the "work" has already been done by the auhtor. Tens (hundreds?) of millions of copies have been sold, and his works are required reading in many high schools. >I am glad to see "the kids" continuing to question & challenge They are the children of (rich?) Brooklyn hipster parents at a Performance arts school[0]. Who exactly are they challenging? If anything, they are being congradulated and pushed along on the hipster path. There are Brooklyn hipsters who unironically use 1980's antenta phones. If anything this is a worn out trope. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School *I don't mean to imply that you are illiterate, just that you haven't thought this through.
- marzell 4y ago
  What I think many people would argue about Dostoyevsky is that it is easy to read at a surface level, but invites critical thinking to reveal layers of subtext and deeper meaning. Maybe you don't agree, which is fine, but I'd suggest this is why some people may associate it with high reading comprehension.
- chip-8 4y ago
  I loved Crime and Punishment, but I struggled to grasp some of the long monologues in The Brothers Karamazov. It’s not hard to follow the plot, but because it deals with challenging ideas through monologues which completely stop the plot, I found it challenging to fully engage with. Hardly a very difficult read but not always an easy page-turner either. Maybe I just needed a better translation.
- ausbah 4y ago
  "they're not authentic they're just performing" is also a trope. I assume someone is being genuine until proven otherwise
- Jorengarenar 4y ago
  >Anyone who thinks reading Dostoyevski is an acomplishment must be borderline illiterate It's not an accomplishment, but it's definitely more, as parent commenter said, "performative" than saying they read any popular author of today. As you yourself pointed, Dostoyevski is a required reading in high school and as anybody who had the "pleasure" of attending school, knows required reading usually isn't something what appeals to the youth (killing joy from this activity is another problem).
rychco 4y ago
While there’s definitely a performative aspect to it, I think there’s a genuine & sincere interest in rejecting social-media manufactured-reality. These teens, regardless of sincerity, are rejecting a demonstrably negative & harmful activity in favor of reading, art, music, & engaging with their local community. I’m thrilled that this is catching on at all. I’ve had a deep hatred of owning a smartphone for years, but always feel like I need it (slack & email for work, immediate news/link aggregation, etc.), so I’m jealous/happy that they’ve gotten a head start at rejecting it outright so young.
- crooked-v 4y ago
  Or to put it another way, being ironically literate and contemplative is still being literate and contemplative.
subpixel 4y ago
Carhartt isn't unsusual at all, it's trendy and has been adopted as streetwear. And I think you're overthinking the performative aspect, it's bog standard teenage behavior that diminishes over time but persists forever. Every branded piece of apparel, every vanity plate, all interior decorating are in the same performative vein.
parker_mountain 4y ago
> They're wearing Carhartt (an unusual choice for a metropolis like NYC), It's not really, it's become a pretty fashionable brand in urban areas. Basically a combination of work wear and basic REI aesthetic.
maeil 4y ago
I do think it's a significant price to pay. While a lot of teens are indeed like this, plenty aren't, and I'd (admittedly without evidence) guess that there's actually a negative correlation between wanting to be part of such a performative group and liking the idea behind the group to the extent of being willing to participate in it and make "sacrifices" for doing so. Maybe it's just personal bias but back when I was a teen, I'd have loved the idea behind it but definitely not joined it for that reason. Especially as a teen, being the only one not participating in the aesthestic would made me feel left out.
sequoia 4y ago
Having read the rest of TFA I think my initial reaction is not fair. What they said about kids not being able to put the phones down for a 1hr meeting was surprising to me and made clear how bad the issue is. More power to these kids and to heck with people calling them classist; what are they obligated to have iPhones for the sake of class solidarity or something? Sounds silly.
tablespoon 4y ago
> This is interesting but I can't help but notice how intensely performative these kids are as well, at least how they're characterized in this article. They're wearing Carhartt (an unusual choice for a metropolis like NYC), reading Dostoyevski and gathering to "listen to the wind." I will say most teens are like this and I certainly was myself, but I hope they are careful not to cultivate their own "artisan" brand of snobbishness (as I also did as a young punk). Also, does the NYT Style section have a reputation of elevating some tiny little clique into a "trend" that goes nowhere because it's not a real trend, just a clique that got written about? I'd love for something like this to be an actual trend (sans the snobbish performance), but I'm skeptical this anything at all.

heavyset_go 4y ago

To me, this feels like you're criticizing kids for being kids. You grew out of it, so will they. It also might be you projecting. It's entirely possible they genuinely enjoy their choice of clothing and literature and it's not a performance.

dieselgate 4y ago

Does one always risk a bit of "pretentiousness" if they act/live contrary to the "main stream"? Just by having a flip phone, for example, someone will be called a "hipster" or whatever name. It's like a group social phenomena or something - just by being vegetarian (or being more "pretentious" by being vegan) people experience this sort of stuff

ravenstine 4y ago
Basically, yes, because a lot of people don't really know what being pretentious or a hipster actually means. The passage of time has lead to both terms being misunderstood and simultaneously conflated. In order for someone to actually be pretentious, there has to be a pretense. Being purposefully non-mainstream doesn't make someone pretentious as much as a more normal individual would like to believe. Hipsters aren't necessarily pretentious, even when they have a pattern of rejecting the mainstream. A hipster might be pretentious if their image is disingenuous (ex. wearing some article they don't actually identify with, pooh-poohing something publicly while appreciating it secretly), but that doesn't have to describe all or most hipsters. I get called a hipster because I often reject or have no interest in many things that most people consider good on that basis alone. When something becomes mainstream, I like it less because I believe something going from unknown to mainstream is usually a bad sign, and that instinct is almost always right. Breaking Bad was way better until everyone started slobbering over it and chanted "get back to cooking meth bruh", and look how it ended. Such a long way for a ham sandwich. haha
- Lammy 4y ago
  > a lot of people don't really know what being pretentious or a hipster actually means https://catandgirl.com/riddle-me-this/ https://catandgirl.com/riddle-me-this/
- HardlyCurious 4y ago
  Rejection of the mainstream / establishment properties is the pretense. It isn't that you like something, it's that you don't want to be associated to some other things. And you don't want to be associated to those other things because of some pretense about what associating to those things means.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    That's not a pretense. The word you're looking for is pretext. Rejecting the mainstream is completely a legitimate position on its own. The only way it can be a pretense is if it's done for appearance only. Well, maybe there are other ways, but that's the only one I can think of at the moment. Maybe this is confusing because of the phrase "false pretense", which is redundant and can lead to some people thinking that there's such a thing as a pretense that isn't false-ish.
    - HardlyCurious 4y ago
      My previous comment wasn't worded the best. At the end of the day, I think the pretentiousness comes from superiority signalling. When a vegan talks about how eating meat is wrong the implication is that they feel morally superior to those who eat meat. And when someone rejects things generally, as opposed to just liking their own things, it implies that those things they reject aren't worth consideration, and hence anyone who does has some inferior judgement or taste. The statement "I would never listen to disco music" implies there is something wrong with doing so, and hence something wrong with those who choose to. "I would never listen to disco music" is a pretentious statement.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  I've got a theory that the TV show Firefly is appreciated today because it got cancelled before it was popular; they quit when they were ahead and before popularity ruined it. But most Firefly fans seem to hate my theory.
iechoz6H 4y ago
Haha, how times have changed, I was a pretty hard core vegan between 1990 and 2003 and was much more likely to be called a cunt than pretentious!
agentwiggles 4y ago
"Flipsters", perhaps :)

cardamomo 4y ago

I think they're no more performative than other teenagers, who are almost developmentally predisposed to be preoccupied with in- and outgroup signaling.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago

> They're wearing Carhartt (an unusual choice for a metropolis like NYC), reading Dostoyevski and gathering to "listen to the wind." I don't know, to me it all seemed exceedingly genuine. If they're spending lots of time outside in parks—"rain or shine, even snow"—their clothing choices make sense. They like reading, and their reading material has made an impression (as good books are wont to do, especially for impressionable teenagers), such as by convincing them of the value of activities like "listening to the wind".

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
It’s genuine insofar as we have gone too far one way as a society and now people, even young people who have no concept of the old days, are exploring the opposite again. I guess it seems a bit pretentious since those of us who were around as young adults when mobiles and the internet took off, and then worked in the industries that made the current situation happen, realise there is a happy midpoint. “The only thing better than a flip phone is no phone?” I can’t roll my eyes enough. I dare say “our generation” started the idea of removing technology again and getting back some of the good old days.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  > “The only thing better than a flip phone is no phone?” I can’t roll my eyes enough. Yeah, but kids often say groan-worthy things, or have opinions that lack perspective. I still think she was being perfectly earnest.
yamtaddle 4y ago
It's worth noting that Carhartt is currently hot as a fashion brand. Yes, really.

headbee 4y ago

Carhartt is a very trendy street wear brand in addition to their (still very trendy and brandy) workwear.

the-printer 4y ago

Carhartt often moonlights as a streetwear brand.

actusual 4y ago
They actually have a dedicated streetwear/hipper line called WIP (https://us.carhartt-wip.com/ https://us.carhartt-wip.com/)
- the-printer 4y ago
  That’s what I was referring to.
  - operatingthetan 4y ago
    I'd suggest the vagueness of "often moonlights" indicated that you weren't aware of the sub-brand being a thing.
okwubodu 4y ago
"Streetwear" itself has a snobbish connotation as of late.
- filmgirlcw 4y ago
  Streetwear has been associated with luxury/higher fashion/snobbery in the mainstream for at least a decade (though its influence both on and by high fashion goes back to the 90s). The biggest fashion trend of the 2010s that has extended into the 2020s was the rise of the streetwear and sneaker culture from the streets and into the mainstream, often at luxury price points.
- the-printer 4y ago
  I don’t know what the nature of the culture is these days, but in hindsight, it’s always been.

themadturk 4y ago

I'm old and I love the Carhartt tee shirts I bought a few years ago...thick cotton, softened through wear and washing, the best shirts I've ever owned. These kids have good taste.

sdwr 4y ago

Didn't read the article, but I wish I had friends who made listening to the wind an activity growing up. There's a lot of performance any direction you take, surrendering time to the elements is a lovely little angle.

soulofmischief 4y ago
Fear of coming across as performative has overall hindered my ability to coexist within certain subcultures. I wish I cared less about this and I admire people who manage to find cultural unity through performance.
- LegitShady 4y ago
  at some point you have to realize the overwhelming majority of people you're worried about being judged by aren't people whose opinions you'd care about if they were offered to you, and that being an authentic you is more important than the judgement of strangers. A lot of people's lives could be way better if they internalized this.
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    I like to remind myself that the world has done nothing for me.

aaroninsf 4y ago

Hottake: the author is effectively oblivious to the impact of the aesthetic scene and unable to filter its impact on contemporary youth culture.

HDThoreaun 4y ago
Considering this is a piece in the style section I find that almost impossible to believe. Seems much more likely that they're just being a bit dishonest about why these kids are "luddites" because it makes for a better story.

LarryMullins 4y ago

I think there's a selection bias here; the ones who are performative are more likely to cross paths with a NYTimes journalist than the ones who aren't. People who keep it low key don't often rise to the notice of others.

ancientworldnow 4y ago
Look up their parents. It's not a coincidence they crossed path with NY Times reporters looking to profile them. Nepotism teens doesn't have the same ring though.
- dpflan 4y ago
  Nepoteenism.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Another interesting angle related to their coming from money—I don't have enough data to really even call it, well, data, but the limited glimpse I've had into properly upper-middle (as in the Fussell, social-class sense, not the "I make $130k/yr as a middle manager and live in a McMansion in a nice school district, so I call myself upper-middle class" sense) and upper classes' kids and schools, they're giving their kids phones way later than the public-school set. Like, 20% or less the ownership rate by 5th grade, I'd say. Nowhere near universal personal smartphone ownership by 8th grade, even, unlike the public schools, where nearly all the kids have one by then. But I'm mostly seeing a single school, so it may just be that that school operates in some kind of techphobic bubble, not that the better-off are generally exposing their kids to cell phones and the Internet way less than the middle-class and lower. ... then again, maybe what I'm seeing isn't a heavily biased sample, and that's exactly what's going on, and this article is a manifestation of a real tendency of the upper classes to curtail tech exposure for their kids, compared with the general population.
- subsubzero 4y ago
  yeah I was wondering how a small group of say 5-8 teens made it to NYtimes. The paper tries to fool you to think these are just organic encounters that are part of a massive movement(anti-tech) when its really just hand picked people close to a friend of someone that works at the paper. Remember it was discovered this year the editorial desk of the NYtimes has a mandate that all stories must paint tech in a negative light.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

I picked up on this a few years ago and mentioned it briefly in Digital Vegan. What struck me while researching was that the accusation of "Luddite" is levelled mainly against older (Boomer, Gen-X/Z) people and comes from the same group. Whereas younger people, glorified as "digital natives" by our older group, actually have more critical attitude towards gratuitous connection and consumption. It made me realise that the mythologies of tech (an inevitable, ubiquitous force of progress and 'convenience' that we must slavishly follow or be "left behind") resides in my generation.

belfalas 4y ago

In many ways the article feels like it's documenting kids with the freedom to have an opinion. Looking at the pictures in the article, it feels like a pretty uniform demographic. And in New York City, no less. Also, they idolize Chris McCandless - he was also a child of privilege who wanted to reject society. Chris didn't have to die but he did because he went up to Alaska woefully unprepared. That doesn't make his death any less tragic, of course. I guess my point is that this phenomenon is not anything new, if anything we've just gotten for enough into the 21st century that the 1970s ethic is making a comeback.

LarryMullins 4y ago
> Also, they idolize Chris McCandless - he was also a child of privilege who wanted to reject society. Idolizing McCandless is such an odd thing; Alaska is filled with people who rejected their past lives like he did, but who didn't die because they had more humility and respect for the land.
- poopiokaka 4y ago
  Lol I can’t imagine judging kids this hard. You’re doing great
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    His death wasn't a freak accident, it was a predictable consequence of him going into Alaska unprepared. He shot a moose and let it rot because he didn't know better and didn't bother to learn first. This was hubris; Alaska is not the place to fake it until you make it. Anyway, my critique of McCandless is mild, talk to some Alaskans if you want to hear some proper vitriolic criticism of him. I barely scratched the surface by accusing him of hubris. If you mean my criticism of teens idolizing McCandless, I don't know what to tell you. He isn't a good role model. There are obviously worse role models, but he isn't a good one.
    - poopiokaka 4y ago

a-dub 4y ago

it's the 2022 version of "kill your television" and i love it. in practice: i wonder how practical it is to survive as an adult without a smartphone. uber has decimated cabs and i don't think you can telephone for an uber. i wonder what else is unreachable/unworkable/etc...

kritiko 4y ago
In Brooklyn now, it's cheaper to use a car service than Uber/Lyft, so I think you could get by fine without those apps. Getting around without Google Maps would be pretty challenging, I think.
- discardedrefuse 4y ago
  > Getting around without Google Maps would be pretty challenging, I think. I learned to drive before smartphones. I can assure you its very possible to find addresses without a phone. Heck, I still sometimes do it for fun! Nothing wrong with a little u-turn here or there.
  - rufus_foreman 4y ago
    Before smartphones I would use a street map, which were sold at every gas station. And if I was still having trouble, I would call for directions from a public pay phone, which were located on street corners every few blocks.
- a-dub 4y ago
  just checked, chatgpt can give directions... reminds me of the old days when i used to text GOOGL for exact addresses
SquareWheel 4y ago
I don't carry a cellphone. The rates are atrocious in Canada, and I don't like being rung when I'm out and about. The biggest problem is 2-factor. Many services are starting to require it, which has led me to losing access to various accounts. Looking at you, Paypal. Otherwise, it's fine. I make a paper shopping list. I schedule meetings in advance, and show up at the expected time. Uber isn't even in my city so there's no loss there.

filmgirlcw 4y ago

>This is interesting but I can't help but notice how intensely performative these kids are as well, at least how they're characterized in this article. I mean, they are teenagers. I said this in a longer comment in this thread, but teenagers tend to be performative. That's sort of the point of growing up and finding yourself.

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago

Anyone who thinks reading Dostoyevski is an acomplishment must be borderline illiterate*. None of his works are a hard read. Dostoyevski is the acomplishment, not the reader. Almost all fiction is a passive medium, the "work" has already been done by the auhtor. Tens (hundreds?) of millions of copies have been sold, and his works are required reading in many high schools. >I am glad to see "the kids" continuing to question & challenge They are the children of (rich?) Brooklyn hipster parents at a Performance arts school[0]. Who exactly are they challenging? If anything, they are being congradulated and pushed along on the hipster path. There are Brooklyn hipsters who unironically use 1980's antenta phones. If anything this is a worn out trope. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow_High_School *I don't mean to imply that you are illiterate, just that you haven't thought this through.

marzell 4y ago
What I think many people would argue about Dostoyevsky is that it is easy to read at a surface level, but invites critical thinking to reveal layers of subtext and deeper meaning. Maybe you don't agree, which is fine, but I'd suggest this is why some people may associate it with high reading comprehension.
chip-8 4y ago
I loved Crime and Punishment, but I struggled to grasp some of the long monologues in The Brothers Karamazov. It’s not hard to follow the plot, but because it deals with challenging ideas through monologues which completely stop the plot, I found it challenging to fully engage with. Hardly a very difficult read but not always an easy page-turner either. Maybe I just needed a better translation.
ausbah 4y ago
"they're not authentic they're just performing" is also a trope. I assume someone is being genuine until proven otherwise
Jorengarenar 4y ago
>Anyone who thinks reading Dostoyevski is an acomplishment must be borderline illiterate It's not an accomplishment, but it's definitely more, as parent commenter said, "performative" than saying they read any popular author of today. As you yourself pointed, Dostoyevski is a required reading in high school and as anybody who had the "pleasure" of attending school, knows required reading usually isn't something what appeals to the youth (killing joy from this activity is another problem).

rychco 4y ago

While there’s definitely a performative aspect to it, I think there’s a genuine & sincere interest in rejecting social-media manufactured-reality. These teens, regardless of sincerity, are rejecting a demonstrably negative & harmful activity in favor of reading, art, music, & engaging with their local community. I’m thrilled that this is catching on at all. I’ve had a deep hatred of owning a smartphone for years, but always feel like I need it (slack & email for work, immediate news/link aggregation, etc.), so I’m jealous/happy that they’ve gotten a head start at rejecting it outright so young.

crooked-v 4y ago
Or to put it another way, being ironically literate and contemplative is still being literate and contemplative.

subpixel 4y ago

Carhartt isn't unsusual at all, it's trendy and has been adopted as streetwear. And I think you're overthinking the performative aspect, it's bog standard teenage behavior that diminishes over time but persists forever. Every branded piece of apparel, every vanity plate, all interior decorating are in the same performative vein.

parker_mountain 4y ago

> They're wearing Carhartt (an unusual choice for a metropolis like NYC), It's not really, it's become a pretty fashionable brand in urban areas. Basically a combination of work wear and basic REI aesthetic.

maeil 4y ago

I do think it's a significant price to pay. While a lot of teens are indeed like this, plenty aren't, and I'd (admittedly without evidence) guess that there's actually a negative correlation between wanting to be part of such a performative group and liking the idea behind the group to the extent of being willing to participate in it and make "sacrifices" for doing so. Maybe it's just personal bias but back when I was a teen, I'd have loved the idea behind it but definitely not joined it for that reason. Especially as a teen, being the only one not participating in the aesthestic would made me feel left out.

sequoia 4y ago

Having read the rest of TFA I think my initial reaction is not fair. What they said about kids not being able to put the phones down for a 1hr meeting was surprising to me and made clear how bad the issue is. More power to these kids and to heck with people calling them classist; what are they obligated to have iPhones for the sake of class solidarity or something? Sounds silly.

tablespoon 4y ago

> This is interesting but I can't help but notice how intensely performative these kids are as well, at least how they're characterized in this article. They're wearing Carhartt (an unusual choice for a metropolis like NYC), reading Dostoyevski and gathering to "listen to the wind." I will say most teens are like this and I certainly was myself, but I hope they are careful not to cultivate their own "artisan" brand of snobbishness (as I also did as a young punk). Also, does the NYT Style section have a reputation of elevating some tiny little clique into a "trend" that goes nowhere because it's not a real trend, just a clique that got written about? I'd love for something like this to be an actual trend (sans the snobbish performance), but I'm skeptical this anything at all.