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It reminded me of one of pg's old essays – http://paulgraham.com/addiction.html http://paulgraham.com/addiction.html. Highly recommended. On a personal note,

It reminded me of one of pg's old essays – http://paulgraham.com/addiction.html http://paulgraham.com/addiction.html. Highly recommended. On a personal note, it's also something that worries me for the day when I'll finally have my own children. I wouldn't want them exposed to modern cyber-addictions from young age, but at the same time, I'm not sure how to protect them, when I can expect that all their peers will be on whatever social app's gonna be popular at that time.

verdenti 4y ago
You protect them by not giving them a smart phone. My daughter is 2 and she hasn’t seen a screen yet.
- lisper 4y ago
  Your comment was downvoted to death but I vouched for it, and leaving this followup comment to make it less likely to get killed again, because I think this is the Right Answer (or at least a big part of the Right Answer).
- Archipelagia 4y ago
  I'm not sure that's a good long term solution. Like, once they see that all their friends have a smartphone, I think it's natural they'll feel jealous. What are you thinking of doing at that point?
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    You avoid as long as you can; not exactly rocket-science.
- nickthegreek 4y ago
  Sounds pretty easy to do at that age. But how long are you going to protect them? Until their 18? Or 16? Or 12? When do you see yourself allowing a phone. Are you keeping iPads away too? Some of my friends with kids gave them cell phones around 12-14. But most of the kids had iPads prior.
  - verdenti 4y ago
    As long as I can, prob 12 unless school requires a laptop or something.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  You're doing the right thing. w.r.t. "what will you do when they get older and jealous?", learning to deal with jealousy is a good lesson to teach kids. Giving a kid everything they envy and demand is how you raise an entitled brat.
  - nickthegreek 4y ago
    They aren’t jealous of the tech. They are jealous of not being included. They might not get invited to events or understand their friends jokes because they weren’t part of the group chats. This can make them resent their parents and give them social anxiety. Kids can be very cruel and lack the empathy skills to understand why their friend isn’t allowed a phone. Overdoing it either direction can be a serious mistake.
    - dr-detroit 4y ago
    - Barrin92 4y ago
      >They are jealous of not being included. It's better to instill in kids early that it's important to cultivate deep rather than wide social connections. Teaching your kid to stand up for themselves and make friends that don't care about blue chat bubbles or fashionable clothes is necessary. Because there's always gonna be some group you're not going to be cool enough to be a part of. Maybe you're not pretty enough, athletic enough, maybe your parents aren't rich enough to send you on the holiday trip the other kids can go on, sooner or later everyone's going to learn the lesson that this isn't how you build genuine connections. I noticed this even as an adult in my 20s, people who hadn't ever learned to deal with social rejection carry that teenage group behavior into their own adult life and can't deal with exclusion.
      - HWR_14 4y ago
        > Teaching your kid to stand up for themselves But they aren't standing up for themselves. They're standing up for decisions forced on them by their parents. > make friends that don't care about blue chat bubbles or fashionable clothes is necessary It has nothing to do with being cool (and I've never heard of anyone referencing blue chat bubbles that wasn't using it derogatorily like you are). It's about not being unable to communicate with people. Like, they may have friends who want to invite them to a party but don't because they put the event on (whatever app is cool). Your kids don't see it and therefore don't go to an event everyone wanted them to go to.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Right up to the point where the only highschool in your region forces your child to have a smartphone.
  - throw_pm23 4y ago
    Sure, but by that time they will have developed sufficiently to be better able to handle it. This is similar to alcohol or smoking. It is worth not giving it to your children even if "they will anyway try it later".
  - verdenti 4y ago
ivan888 4y ago
Yes, "how can we simultaneously protect while also healthily socialize children?" is a difficult question to answer as a potential future parent. Social acceptance (to a degree) is critical to healthy development, while some of the most common uniting social tools (for previous generations, high levels of consumerism and signaling; for now and the future, near-constant technology use) are viewed by some parents as unhealthy and lead some to want to abstain entirely.
legohead 4y ago
It's very difficult. I was lucky to have access to the internet in the late 80s and have watched it grow, mature, evolve. I know how quickly things can change, and I don't want my kids to miss out or be left behind. But at the same time, the dangers that exist today didn't exist even in the 90s. My biggest fear then was receiving an email virus. Now, Social Media alone is enough to make a parent take a step back and wonder what is the right time to introduce your children to the internet. Our solution, which isn't perfect, is to use a parent control app. Kids can use their devices for X hours and only certain times of day, and we have to approve each app install or purchase made on the phone. It feels like too much control, but the alternative is too dangerous. And even still I walk in on the kids to see what they are doing. It's a balancing act that will take time to figure out. We are evolving as a global cultural, technological race, and evolving fast.
- ihatepython 4y ago
  > Now, Social Media alone is enough to make a parent take a step back and wonder what is the right time to introduce your children to the internet. This implies that parents are knowledgeable and responsible people who know better, when in reality, the vast majority of parents are complete morons.
- a-dub 4y ago
  some of my first ever C programs did just this for the dos computers at my high school.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  > Social Media alone is enough to make a parent take a step back and wonder what is the right time to introduce your children to the internet. I can't help but wonder whenever I hear this message: do you know, really? After taking with them a little, it often comes down to pretty ... innocuous things in my opinion. Sure, there's always peer pressure and they'll be constantly judged etc, but that's just a an exaggerated baseline of what teenagers always had. Surely troublesome and not good for their mental health, but they'll probably get over it eventually. From my perspective, the biggest danger that current social media created is that the creep factor is gone for stalking. To make a pretty regular example, let's say there is a teenage girl that's feeling lonely. She starts a live stream to talk with people. Some people show up and are super positive! They even give her some stickers (which are literally just money on TikTok she can check out...). Isn't it great to be valued? I don't think I need to write the rest of the story, as it's quiet obvious where the grooming eventually leads. It's especially hard to swallow because the money she could make is astronomically higher then she'd ever have a chance of making anywhere else. Good luck explaining that... Seriously, the original social media was so frickin tame. It's so much more twisted now that money is involved and everything is moving towards 1 person with an audience vs "your group of friends" before.
slothtrop 4y ago
I'm thinking about this periodically. I expect that - in addition to mere time restriction from the outset - ensuring that the kids are sufficiently busy with leisure outlets and spending enough face-to-face time with others their own age will go a long ways. At the core of it, the addiction we have, as social media is concerned, is to each other, excepting the mindless never-ending-scroll entertainment part of it. Not to say I would overschedule, but would take care that they a) are registered to at least one sport for the majority of the year (intramural is fine), b) have the means and habit to make use of things for creative ends, or to get out of the house and explore. If that foundation is there from the start, might not have to pry the phones/tablets out of them. I can't very well completely cut off any access to devices because the SO and I use them and it will just become a sore spot, particularly as the kids age.
eikenberry 4y ago
IMO they need to be exposed at a young age but need guidance to make sense of it... much like most things in the world. If you shelter them from it they won't learn how to deal with it and will be forced to figure it out themselves. As a parent I think it is my responsibility to expose them to as many of these sorts of things as possible and teach them to deal with them in a healthy way.
wil421 4y ago
We recently deleted my 3 years old YouTube Kids app and the change made me contemplate my own live decisions. She likes Disney and a few other toddler style games. Seeing the difference in her behavior has made me look hard at my own YouTube watching.
- mcphage 4y ago
  Even though it’s filtered, the amount of garbage on YouTube Kids is astounding. We made the same choice.
thedorkknight 4y ago
Depending on how long you wait to have kids, it may not be social media apps, but literal digital drugs, depending on how far along brain/computer IO has gotten by that point. If you're interested, read the books "the pleasure shock" and "towards a psycho-civilized society"
jcelerier 4y ago
> protect them from what? I've spent countless, countless, countless hours on the internet since 1996 when I was 4, by age 9 I had my computer on my room, at 12/13 we were laughing with my friends about the horrible shit on rotten.com and now I have a fine life without any particular issue, so what are you trying to protect them from? doing dumb shit? e.g. there's nothing you can ever do that will prevent a dedicated 15-years old to have sex, smoke joints or get drunk, but if you try hard I can guarantee you that they will resent you a lot and will have a much, much harder time when they are free from parental control and are left in the wild.
to1y 4y ago
Eh don't worry. Just set a good example, love them and it will be fine.

verdenti 4y ago

You protect them by not giving them a smart phone. My daughter is 2 and she hasn’t seen a screen yet.

lisper 4y ago
Your comment was downvoted to death but I vouched for it, and leaving this followup comment to make it less likely to get killed again, because I think this is the Right Answer (or at least a big part of the Right Answer).
Archipelagia 4y ago
I'm not sure that's a good long term solution. Like, once they see that all their friends have a smartphone, I think it's natural they'll feel jealous. What are you thinking of doing at that point?
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  You avoid as long as you can; not exactly rocket-science.
nickthegreek 4y ago
Sounds pretty easy to do at that age. But how long are you going to protect them? Until their 18? Or 16? Or 12? When do you see yourself allowing a phone. Are you keeping iPads away too? Some of my friends with kids gave them cell phones around 12-14. But most of the kids had iPads prior.
- verdenti 4y ago
  As long as I can, prob 12 unless school requires a laptop or something.
LarryMullins 4y ago
You're doing the right thing. w.r.t. "what will you do when they get older and jealous?", learning to deal with jealousy is a good lesson to teach kids. Giving a kid everything they envy and demand is how you raise an entitled brat.
- nickthegreek 4y ago
  They aren’t jealous of the tech. They are jealous of not being included. They might not get invited to events or understand their friends jokes because they weren’t part of the group chats. This can make them resent their parents and give them social anxiety. Kids can be very cruel and lack the empathy skills to understand why their friend isn’t allowed a phone. Overdoing it either direction can be a serious mistake.
  - dr-detroit 4y ago
  - Barrin92 4y ago
    >They are jealous of not being included. It's better to instill in kids early that it's important to cultivate deep rather than wide social connections. Teaching your kid to stand up for themselves and make friends that don't care about blue chat bubbles or fashionable clothes is necessary. Because there's always gonna be some group you're not going to be cool enough to be a part of. Maybe you're not pretty enough, athletic enough, maybe your parents aren't rich enough to send you on the holiday trip the other kids can go on, sooner or later everyone's going to learn the lesson that this isn't how you build genuine connections. I noticed this even as an adult in my 20s, people who hadn't ever learned to deal with social rejection carry that teenage group behavior into their own adult life and can't deal with exclusion.
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      > Teaching your kid to stand up for themselves But they aren't standing up for themselves. They're standing up for decisions forced on them by their parents. > make friends that don't care about blue chat bubbles or fashionable clothes is necessary It has nothing to do with being cool (and I've never heard of anyone referencing blue chat bubbles that wasn't using it derogatorily like you are). It's about not being unable to communicate with people. Like, they may have friends who want to invite them to a party but don't because they put the event on (whatever app is cool). Your kids don't see it and therefore don't go to an event everyone wanted them to go to.
jacquesm 4y ago
Right up to the point where the only highschool in your region forces your child to have a smartphone.
- throw_pm23 4y ago
  Sure, but by that time they will have developed sufficiently to be better able to handle it. This is similar to alcohol or smoking. It is worth not giving it to your children even if "they will anyway try it later".
- verdenti 4y ago

ivan888 4y ago

Yes, "how can we simultaneously protect while also healthily socialize children?" is a difficult question to answer as a potential future parent. Social acceptance (to a degree) is critical to healthy development, while some of the most common uniting social tools (for previous generations, high levels of consumerism and signaling; for now and the future, near-constant technology use) are viewed by some parents as unhealthy and lead some to want to abstain entirely.

legohead 4y ago

It's very difficult. I was lucky to have access to the internet in the late 80s and have watched it grow, mature, evolve. I know how quickly things can change, and I don't want my kids to miss out or be left behind. But at the same time, the dangers that exist today didn't exist even in the 90s. My biggest fear then was receiving an email virus. Now, Social Media alone is enough to make a parent take a step back and wonder what is the right time to introduce your children to the internet. Our solution, which isn't perfect, is to use a parent control app. Kids can use their devices for X hours and only certain times of day, and we have to approve each app install or purchase made on the phone. It feels like too much control, but the alternative is too dangerous. And even still I walk in on the kids to see what they are doing. It's a balancing act that will take time to figure out. We are evolving as a global cultural, technological race, and evolving fast.

ihatepython 4y ago
> Now, Social Media alone is enough to make a parent take a step back and wonder what is the right time to introduce your children to the internet. This implies that parents are knowledgeable and responsible people who know better, when in reality, the vast majority of parents are complete morons.
a-dub 4y ago
some of my first ever C programs did just this for the dos computers at my high school.
411111111111111 4y ago
> Social Media alone is enough to make a parent take a step back and wonder what is the right time to introduce your children to the internet. I can't help but wonder whenever I hear this message: do you know, really? After taking with them a little, it often comes down to pretty ... innocuous things in my opinion. Sure, there's always peer pressure and they'll be constantly judged etc, but that's just a an exaggerated baseline of what teenagers always had. Surely troublesome and not good for their mental health, but they'll probably get over it eventually. From my perspective, the biggest danger that current social media created is that the creep factor is gone for stalking. To make a pretty regular example, let's say there is a teenage girl that's feeling lonely. She starts a live stream to talk with people. Some people show up and are super positive! They even give her some stickers (which are literally just money on TikTok she can check out...). Isn't it great to be valued? I don't think I need to write the rest of the story, as it's quiet obvious where the grooming eventually leads. It's especially hard to swallow because the money she could make is astronomically higher then she'd ever have a chance of making anywhere else. Good luck explaining that... Seriously, the original social media was so frickin tame. It's so much more twisted now that money is involved and everything is moving towards 1 person with an audience vs "your group of friends" before.

slothtrop 4y ago

I'm thinking about this periodically. I expect that - in addition to mere time restriction from the outset - ensuring that the kids are sufficiently busy with leisure outlets and spending enough face-to-face time with others their own age will go a long ways. At the core of it, the addiction we have, as social media is concerned, is to each other, excepting the mindless never-ending-scroll entertainment part of it. Not to say I would overschedule, but would take care that they a) are registered to at least one sport for the majority of the year (intramural is fine), b) have the means and habit to make use of things for creative ends, or to get out of the house and explore. If that foundation is there from the start, might not have to pry the phones/tablets out of them. I can't very well completely cut off any access to devices because the SO and I use them and it will just become a sore spot, particularly as the kids age.

eikenberry 4y ago

IMO they need to be exposed at a young age but need guidance to make sense of it... much like most things in the world. If you shelter them from it they won't learn how to deal with it and will be forced to figure it out themselves. As a parent I think it is my responsibility to expose them to as many of these sorts of things as possible and teach them to deal with them in a healthy way.

wil421 4y ago

We recently deleted my 3 years old YouTube Kids app and the change made me contemplate my own live decisions. She likes Disney and a few other toddler style games. Seeing the difference in her behavior has made me look hard at my own YouTube watching.

mcphage 4y ago
Even though it’s filtered, the amount of garbage on YouTube Kids is astounding. We made the same choice.

thedorkknight 4y ago

Depending on how long you wait to have kids, it may not be social media apps, but literal digital drugs, depending on how far along brain/computer IO has gotten by that point. If you're interested, read the books "the pleasure shock" and "towards a psycho-civilized society"

jcelerier 4y ago

> protect them from what? I've spent countless, countless, countless hours on the internet since 1996 when I was 4, by age 9 I had my computer on my room, at 12/13 we were laughing with my friends about the horrible shit on rotten.com and now I have a fine life without any particular issue, so what are you trying to protect them from? doing dumb shit? e.g. there's nothing you can ever do that will prevent a dedicated 15-years old to have sex, smoke joints or get drunk, but if you try hard I can guarantee you that they will resent you a lot and will have a much, much harder time when they are free from parental control and are left in the wild.

to1y 4y ago

Eh don't worry. Just set a good example, love them and it will be fine.