4 ms·

Not OP, but chiming in nevertheless, as I do also "set up Linux for computer-illiterate old ladies". They all roll Debian stable with unattended_upgrades and i

Not OP, but chiming in nevertheless, as I do also "set up Linux for computer-illiterate old ladies". They all roll Debian stable with unattended_upgrades and it's an absolute joy of stability. Not that I would use Debian stable for my personal machines: I want the latest shiniest and I want to be close to upstream to report bugs when they're fresh and easy to fix by the maintainer (yes, "I use arch btw" indeed), but for "computer-illiterate" people, stability trumps everything else. The "computer illiterate" isn't amused by constant breaking behavior / visual changes. They want the thing to work reliably and unsurprisingly. Debian delivers this and never breaks. Once every major dist-upgrade I review changes with them, and they're good to go until next time.

freeplay 4y ago
Nice. What is your go to desktop environment for them?
- ronjouch 4y ago
  - Generally, GNOME with the dash-to-panel/dash-to-dock extension-du-jour to have a left-side panel with app buttons (so, a "Ubuntu/Unity"-like look). It baffles me how stock GNOME still insists not to provide a left/bottom "dock" / task switcher as a built-in option, and force you to go to the menu every time you want to access / switch to an app, but here we are with extensions oÔ. - That being said, a well-configured/simplified Plasma these would certainly be all well (or not, see my final paragraph below about locking things down; GNOME is less infinitely configurable than KDE/Plasma, so there's less room for user fuckup). Also I'm certainly biased towards GNOME because that's what I choose to use for my machines. Also also, I go where there are the most eyeballs (again, for stability & maximal guarantee that bugs are seen), and for now it's GNOME. - Exception: one grandma has a particularly old laptop (x86-32 old :D) with meager RAM, so for her setup I went with MATE. I hesitated between LxQt and MATE, tried both, and MATE (at the time) seemed a tad more polished. Finally, since I have your interest and GUIs are a subject I love ranting about, one more thing you need to do when setting up an old ladies machine, is to LOCK DOWN ALL THE THINGS YOU CAN: - LibreOffice toolbars that can be accidentally dragged, then maybe dragged offscreen or closed? LOCK THEM. - Thunderbird folder column titles that will change email ordering if accidentally clicked? HIDE THEM with userChrome.css until https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237051 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237051 is fixed. - Etc etc, when I'm done provisioning such a machine, I spend an hour playing with it and wondering "How could someone haphazardly clicking and dragging everywhere break/mismanage this?" , and I disable/lock/hide everything I can. There is a million configurable / breakable things that we power users don't imagine being confusing to a user, because we know the features and we're precise at clicking on stuff. But to non-computerists, these things are veeeeery confusing! They'll email you with a gibberish issue description when invoked accidentally, and when it happens too often they get scared. There's potential to build a whole distribution aimed at such users, with everything properly locked down.
  - nephanth 4y ago
    For thunderbird column header, there is an extension that locks them (unless you're ctrl+clicking them) Might be more intuitive than locking them?
    - ronjouch 4y ago
      Thanks! Yup, if you look at the bugzilla link I shared above, you'll see I mention this extension in the last comment: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237051#c11 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237051#c11 . I couldn't check it as I run Tb beta (which the extension doesn't support last time I check), but I might give it a try next time I maintain one of these machines ..... or not: 0. They never ever need to click it to re-order. Why bother with an unneeded feature? 1. Extensions break! UserChrome.css too, but maybe less so :) , and a CSS rule is simpler/smaller in added complexity & potential for bugs than an extension. 2. Also, hiding the columns means one less bit of chrome to read/parse. Hiding stuff avoids misclicks, but also increases GUI legibility for people with bad eyesight.
- swayvil 4y ago
  Mate
bradwood 4y ago
what about Fedora workstation for the old-lady use case? I'm about to give my 12 year old non-technical daughter a linux laptop, and wondering on distro. I'm thinking Fedora but open to be convinced otherwise?
- chungy 4y ago
  Pick something you're willing to maintain. Stable releases tend to reduce maintenance and surprises.
- ronjouch 4y ago
  For your daughter tinkering with a distro, yeah Fedora sounds awesome :) For the old ladies, no: Fedora has a short release cycle, and no LTS; not great for maximal stability. "a version of Fedora is usually supported for at least 13 months" ( https://endoflife.date/fedora https://endoflife.date/fedora ), while Debian is security-supported at least 5 years! ( https://endoflife.date/debian https://endoflife.date/debian ) Debian's whole project architecture & release cycle is built towards being stable bedrock, I see virtually no reason to use anything else if you aim at max. stability and don't care about running old (but still secure!) software.
- LBJsPNS 4y ago
  MX. Fast. Stable as a rock.

freeplay 4y ago

Nice. What is your go to desktop environment for them?

ronjouch 4y ago
- Generally, GNOME with the dash-to-panel/dash-to-dock extension-du-jour to have a left-side panel with app buttons (so, a "Ubuntu/Unity"-like look). It baffles me how stock GNOME still insists not to provide a left/bottom "dock" / task switcher as a built-in option, and force you to go to the menu every time you want to access / switch to an app, but here we are with extensions oÔ. - That being said, a well-configured/simplified Plasma these would certainly be all well (or not, see my final paragraph below about locking things down; GNOME is less infinitely configurable than KDE/Plasma, so there's less room for user fuckup). Also I'm certainly biased towards GNOME because that's what I choose to use for my machines. Also also, I go where there are the most eyeballs (again, for stability & maximal guarantee that bugs are seen), and for now it's GNOME. - Exception: one grandma has a particularly old laptop (x86-32 old :D) with meager RAM, so for her setup I went with MATE. I hesitated between LxQt and MATE, tried both, and MATE (at the time) seemed a tad more polished. Finally, since I have your interest and GUIs are a subject I love ranting about, one more thing you need to do when setting up an old ladies machine, is to LOCK DOWN ALL THE THINGS YOU CAN: - LibreOffice toolbars that can be accidentally dragged, then maybe dragged offscreen or closed? LOCK THEM. - Thunderbird folder column titles that will change email ordering if accidentally clicked? HIDE THEM with userChrome.css until https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237051 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237051 is fixed. - Etc etc, when I'm done provisioning such a machine, I spend an hour playing with it and wondering "How could someone haphazardly clicking and dragging everywhere break/mismanage this?" , and I disable/lock/hide everything I can. There is a million configurable / breakable things that we power users don't imagine being confusing to a user, because we know the features and we're precise at clicking on stuff. But to non-computerists, these things are veeeeery confusing! They'll email you with a gibberish issue description when invoked accidentally, and when it happens too often they get scared. There's potential to build a whole distribution aimed at such users, with everything properly locked down.
- nephanth 4y ago
  For thunderbird column header, there is an extension that locks them (unless you're ctrl+clicking them) Might be more intuitive than locking them?
  - ronjouch 4y ago
    Thanks! Yup, if you look at the bugzilla link I shared above, you'll see I mention this extension in the last comment: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237051#c11 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237051#c11 . I couldn't check it as I run Tb beta (which the extension doesn't support last time I check), but I might give it a try next time I maintain one of these machines ..... or not: 0. They never ever need to click it to re-order. Why bother with an unneeded feature? 1. Extensions break! UserChrome.css too, but maybe less so :) , and a CSS rule is simpler/smaller in added complexity & potential for bugs than an extension. 2. Also, hiding the columns means one less bit of chrome to read/parse. Hiding stuff avoids misclicks, but also increases GUI legibility for people with bad eyesight.
swayvil 4y ago
Mate

bradwood 4y ago

what about Fedora workstation for the old-lady use case? I'm about to give my 12 year old non-technical daughter a linux laptop, and wondering on distro. I'm thinking Fedora but open to be convinced otherwise?

chungy 4y ago
Pick something you're willing to maintain. Stable releases tend to reduce maintenance and surprises.
ronjouch 4y ago
For your daughter tinkering with a distro, yeah Fedora sounds awesome :) For the old ladies, no: Fedora has a short release cycle, and no LTS; not great for maximal stability. "a version of Fedora is usually supported for at least 13 months" ( https://endoflife.date/fedora https://endoflife.date/fedora ), while Debian is security-supported at least 5 years! ( https://endoflife.date/debian https://endoflife.date/debian ) Debian's whole project architecture & release cycle is built towards being stable bedrock, I see virtually no reason to use anything else if you aim at max. stability and don't care about running old (but still secure!) software.
LBJsPNS 4y ago
MX. Fast. Stable as a rock.