5 ms·
Yup and when there's no sun and no wind, like in winter in most places, you need something else, or batteries, which are ridiculously expensive both in $ and CO
by thatfrenchguy 4y ago
Yup and when there's no sun and no wind, like in winter in most places, you need something else, or batteries, which are ridiculously expensive both in $ and CO2 per kwh. Solar and Wind just can't do base load today, and you can't turn off the natural gas / coal plants that back them when they don't work.
This is a classic case of "doing the first 50% is easy, doing the last 50% is 99% of the work".
- themitigating 4y agoWhy wouldn't there be sun in the winter in most places?
- prottog 4y agoI don't know what GP meant about "most places", but I guess generally places that have a winter (away from the tropics, that is) are cloudier in the winter, as well as by definition having lower solar irradiation. Most of Europe is in the unenviable position of having higher power requirements precisely when solar potential is at the lowest[0]. [0]: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Typical-winter-and-summer-day-solar-irradiation-and-European-electricity-load-profiles_fig1_215681334 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Typical-winter-and-summe...
- fulafel 4y agoThe power requirements are fixable by better insulated housing (see eg passive houses). Practically free natural gas has kept people from investing in energy efficient housing, just like in warmer places where people use AC wastefully in poorly insulated buildings.
- peteradio 4y agoIronically during a nuclear winter event which may or may not be a fraudulent science meme concocted during the cold war. And yet we have had points in fairly recent human history where we had years long stretches of problems caused by volcanic activity. All we need then is some way to turn nuclear fuel directly to enriched calories.
- adamsb6 4y agoIn the northern hemisphere the winter solstice is five days from today. Where I am, in Seattle, the sun will be above the horizon for only about 8.5 hours. It will also likely be cloudy. Contrast this with the summer solstice, where we get about 16 hours with the sun above the horizon.
- fulafel 4y agoLess sun, more wind, vs no wind and no sun.
- eternityforest 4y agoPretty sure you can turn natural gas on and off to some degree to back the solar, that's part of why everyone likes it so much.
- arghwhat 4y agoTurning on a power plant is a slow and cumbersome process. If you need them to handle loads in excess of renewable capacity, or to handle sudden lows, you unfortunately need to keep them running...
- eternityforest 4y agoWhat about this? https://www.ge.com/power/transform/article.transform.articles.2017.jun.load-following-power-plant https://www.ge.com/power/transform/article.transform.article... Seems like some types can start in five minutes.
- arghwhat 4y agoUh, winter is windier than summer, caused by the stronger temperature gradients. In the last 12 months in Denmark, wind produced over 3 times more power in January and February (the coldest month of the year) than it did in August. This is completely opposite of solar which peaks in July. In that sense they complement each other quite well. Reference: https://ens.dk/service/statistik-data-noegletal-og-kort/maanedlig-og-aarlig-energistatistik https://ens.dk/service/statistik-data-noegletal-og-kort/maan...
- Archelaos 4y agoRenewable energies are much more diverse than just solar and wind. There is also waterpower and biomass which makes a considerable part of renewable energy in many countries.[1] Niche sources like geothermal and tidal power might become more important in the future. There are other types of energy storage available and in research than batteries. Then there is the path to improve energy efficience in industry and private consumption, which both have a lot of potential, and to replace fossil energy sources outside of electricity production with renewables, such as heat-pumps for buildings. [1] E.g. for Germany, biomass is almost as important as solar for electrical energy. Source: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Branchen-Unternehmen/Energie/Erzeugung/Tabellen/bruttostromerzeugung.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Branchen-Unternehmen/Energ...
- throwaway4aday 4y agoUm, isn't biomass just burning wood and waste? How is that helpful? It seems to be pretty regressive. https://energytransition.org/2020/07/the-secret-burning-of-trees-the-often-overlooked-role-of-biomass/ https://energytransition.org/2020/07/the-secret-burning-of-t...
- Xylakant 4y agoBurning wood/biomass or gas generated from biomass releases the CO2 that has been captured by the plant while growing. Replanting the same plant will capture the same amount again. It’s effectively solar energy using photosynthesis instead of solar cells. So it’s a renewable energy, as long as you replant what you harvest. The problem correctly pointed out in the article is that often the replanting comes after the harvest, or does not effectively happen at all - at least for wood pellets.
- kaba0 4y agoI would imagine it taking out plenty of minerals and nutrients from the soil though, needing constant fertilizer usage which comes with its own set of problems.
- goodpoint 4y agoThere's plenty of wind across the world in winter.
- kristopolous 4y agoWhat an antiquated argument. If you can't understand Geoffrey Moore's crossing the chasm and what those trends look like in market segments, I can't help you https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_California#/media/File%3ACalifornia_electricity_generation_by_source_2001-2020.png https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_California#/media/... I don't need a degree from HBS to see where this is going