12 ms·

Humans hold the key to collaboration no matter how good the software tools

136 points by simonpure 4y ago

cheath 4y ago
https://archive.vn/O2wk9 https://archive.vn/O2wk9
Selfcommit 4y ago
Tools facilitate the process, but can’t replace it. I wonder if there’s a measure for how well 2 GPT chat prompts collaborate with one another?
- exit 4y ago
  this brings to mind the recent announcement of cicero, which plays diplomacy: https://ai.facebook.com/research/cicero/ https://ai.facebook.com/research/cicero/
gwn7 4y ago
I know it's heartbreaking to accept, but there are some problems in the world that apps cannot help with.
- fuzzfactor 4y ago
  Roger. It's equally true that humans still hold the key to collaboration no matter how shitty the software tools try to be.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Why would anyone think otherwise? Why would it be heartbreaking? Edit: The parent was sarcasm, I jumped to a conclusion because I see so much hatred for tech
  - monsieurbanana 4y ago
    That might have been sarcasm
    - gwn7 4y ago
      Thank you
  - gwn7 4y ago
    It was a sarcastic comment alluding to the caricature of the tech bros who see nails everywhere for their hi-tech hammers.
- mistermann 4y ago
  "cannot help with" seems very unlikely to me, especially if "apps" is not constrained to that which currently exists, but even if constrained. Can you (or others) list a few examples?
  - gwn7 4y ago
    I'm speaking in the present tense. Even if "apps" would be able to solve all our current problems in a hundred or a thousand years [1][2], I really don't have anything to say about that. I have no idea. [1]: Which imo would be delusionally optimistic to believe in [2]: And which would surely create new types of problems in the process > Can you (or others) list a few examples? For starters, the posted article illustrates one example.
    - mistermann 4y ago
      "there are some problems in the world that apps cannot help with" --> "able to solve all our current problems" I wonder if an app could help with this process that sits very deep in the stack, and has zillions of other services running on top of it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- andirk 4y ago
  Apple c. 2010 disagrees [0]. They registered "There's an app for that" as a trademark. I lost my phone in an Uber yesterday so now I have no apps. [0] https://www.wired.com/2010/10/app-for-that/ https://www.wired.com/2010/10/app-for-that/
  - gwn7 4y ago
    Oops, isn't there an app to recover lost phones in Uber cars?
    - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
      https://www.apple.com/icloud/find-my/ https://www.apple.com/icloud/find-my/
      - gwn7 4y ago
        Finding and recovering are different things ;)
- 6510 4y ago
  If you have infinite monkeys with type writers and sufficient time, other problems will seem insignificant.
  - gwn7 4y ago
    If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
robg 4y ago
So true, when to interrupt or work together or stay focused is the biggest productivity challenge for teams. Technology is just a communication medium today, intent is the holy grail of collaboration.
mr_tristan 4y ago
Technology is often very, very distracting, and everyone feels it. I've noticed that we've hit a point in my team where juniors don't even feel comfortable asking questions in a team channel, because they think it might add to the noise. It isn't just that they don't want to "look dumb", but they genuinely don't want to bother a senior engineer. So, paradoxically, the low-effort nature of Slack has actually created barriers to communication in this case. (I have no idea how common this is, but I suspect, at very big companies, there are similar dynamics.) One solution I've found as a more senior engineer is to force a working session with a junior regularly. Like, we're not there to do anything specific, just work on something together. This ends up becoming a much more comfortable space for them to open up with all their questions. Tech really isn't a direct cause of real social problems, but often just presents distractions, which can add up over time. Phones have just taken us to a point where tech is just always with us, thus, we've hit some kind of "maximum distract-ability" point. But the real solution isn't to really ban new tech, it's just to learn how to identify and avoid letting it distract us further.
- Rayhem 4y ago
  > Like, we're not there to do anything specific, just work on something together. I keep lobbying for "office hours" like this at every single one of our retrospectives and it gets zero traction. My juniors have mentioned how hungry they are to learn more about the craft and they love it when I drag them into conference rooms for impromptu brainstorming/lecturing, but even then I get no votes for implementing office hours. I'm eternally puzzled.
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  One thing I found that helps in some cases, that I wish was said (and actually practiced) when I was a junior developer, is, “my main job is to help you get comfortable with everything and help you be successful. Everything else about my job is basically just filler for whenever you don’t need my direct attention. Never ever feel like you’re inconveniencing me because helping you is my job.”
  - adambyrtek 4y ago
pinkywinky763 4y ago
This is because collaboration is multidimensional. Software really struggles to replicate that. It's a hard problem.
donutshop 4y ago
This is still relevant https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDrZEKCWwAAG_Ty?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDrZEKCWwAAG_Ty?format=jpg&name=...
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  It looks like this classic has finally run down the curtain and shuffled off this mortal coil, but it is still relevant: https://web.archive.org/web/20220328095158/https://internetisshit.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220328095158/https://interneti...
- geoduck14 4y ago
  The Pointy Haired Boss has become ChatGPT
  - cratermoon 4y ago
    PHB would say "let's use ChatGPT"
kkfx 4y ago
Humans hold part of the key, human organization another, quality/design of tools around human organization do the rest. Modern tools are made to "keep user on our platform", witch is a very BAD thing for collaboration, modern tools tend to be all walled gardens, as a result collaboration with the world is VERY BAD and so on. Let's imaging an international payment system NOT designed around brokers with a gazillion of proprietary platforms but a COMMON API, let's say similar to OpenBank, where ANYONE, not only financial institutions participate. Than payments would be far simpler for anyone, so they do their part to help collaboration for some activities. Let's say we cooperate with plain text files, so we do not have formatting issues, version issues etc common on crappy WYSIWYG platform. Another part of collaboration became easier and so on. YES, this tools are part of the game because they are part of the workflow, it's not just specific sharing tools. Physical environment is part of the game as well: if we are in comfortable places with comfy tools we collaborate better. There is no holistic approach takeable by single companies, simply the platform model is nice for the platform owner business but harmful for the society and the more we advance the more we cut small part of it to allow collaboration. It's about time to admit that and start change course a bit more seriously...
- sjducb 4y ago
  For a minute I thought you were making a case for crypto
exit 4y ago
> It’s important to frame the plethora of technological platforms and applications which have flooded increasingly into the workplace as only ever as good as the human minds using them. Nothing can replace this—the technology is a utility to augment the creativity and dynamics of what happens when people work together. (emphasis mine) i think this disregards the synergistic effects technology can have. in particular, "good software" can formalise and make explicit processes which humans otherwise struggle to manage through tacit communication and "norms". more than augmenting, we extend our capacities through technology. in many ways this defines our species.
User23 4y ago
I’ve yet to find a project management system that’s lower impedance for developers than index cards for the backlog and sticky notes for task progress. PMs hate it because it requires them to stay directly involved and do their own data aggregation instead of just autogenerating reports that are of absolutely no value to the people actually doing the work.
- fatnoah 4y ago
  When I ran Engineering for a startup with 6 different software teams, I resorted to index cards + sticky notes on the exterior wall of my office. It was a great visual display of status that everyone, including those not in the tech org, could understand. The Engineers found it very satisfying to physically move the tickets themselves.
- wpietri 4y ago
  I am a huge fan of index cards! For those curious, I wrote up an example of I use them: https://williampietri.com/writing/2015/the-big-board/ https://williampietri.com/writing/2015/the-big-board/ I'm working with a new team and for a while the priorities have been murky. But we got everybody in a room and I broke out the index cards and sharpies, making everybody write down things they care about and put them strict linear order. It was way more effective than any online tool I have ever used. Since we work remotely I'll be putting those cards into an electronic tool (KanbanFlow if I get my druthers; Jira if I have to). But the level of participation and the speed of getting to consensus via index cards is unmatched.
- deterministic 4y ago
  My #1 proven-in-battle management tool is a humble prioritised to-do list. I have used it for managing large teams and for personal projects. It is simple. It works. Love it.
secondlifeagain 4y ago
Ugh. Why was this posted here? > All of which brings us back to the human in the machine age. As long as collaboration technology is underpinned by collaboration management in the next phase of work, the teams that come together can get their work done. Whether in-person, in-cyberspace or in between. This is obvious. Plus it's an ad for their book. Such a poorly written article with so much fluff. Can we let this die off and move off the front page?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
xipho 4y ago
We consciously call those who use our services "collaborators", we're on equal-footing, to the point of not trying to say "service" (when it is). This week we just met with a potential group of users of our open-source software, that we also offer free as a service. In the area they are exploring it has some shortcomings, and is the newest of the bunch in terms of features, overall use in that manner, etc. When we asked, "Why aren't you using X, or Y (you should consider them, they are good too!)?", and "What features are compelling you to use 'us'?", the answer came back "we like you, people, you talked to us, we know others who use your tools, and we like them too". Features, lack there-of, etc. just were not the clincher, even when we said repeatedly said "but we can't do that!". The important bit was they perceived they were joining a community of like-minded folk, who they liked. Not surprising, it's our mission to promote this very idea, but it was also the first time we heard it stated so bluntly.
olivermarks 4y ago
There are way too many academics, curators and theorists in the collaboration theories world. Way too many VCs and tech start ups have taken them too seriously. It's like the old joke 'an economist can tell you a 1000 ways to make love but has never touched another person'. The reality with collaboration strategies (which I was heavily involved with last decade) is that it all about context, scale, the people involved, the goals, overcoming silos and rivalries etc. The technology enablers are not wildly important except to choose tools that don't impede. Playing wackamole with 57 varieties of Slack channel to make sure you are not missing anything vitally important is not efficient collaboration and a huge time suck. As long as the academic chattering classes keep convincing VCs to pour money into yet more collab start ups there will continue to be new generations of not very useful tools and the low bar of msft teams and email/doc culture will continue to survive. Glacial pace, groundhog day film like deja vu experiences in this world as I'm sure many have experienced on HN...
- CrypticShift 4y ago
  Ok I agree that software is not the primary enabler. But let's just pause on these tools. For you : - On the one hand, mainstream collaborative tools are "low-bar", and Big Tech is responsible for its "Glacial pace". - On the other hand, "new generations" are growing too wildly, and "are not very useful", and "academic chattering" is responsible for it. The second point is supposed the be the "market" solution to the first. You seem to think this is not the case, because of misguided academics, curators and theorists. Would you care to cite some (of the worst) examples ?
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  > an economist can tell you a 1000 ways to make love but has never touched another person I was always partial to Brendan Behan's famous quote: > “Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves.”
  - andirk 4y ago
    Is that considered one of the best quotes ever? Because I am using it but will likely botch it each time yet still get the point across.
Spivak 4y ago
I think one of the big issues that collaboration and productivity apps miss is that they’re supposed to be tools that help and accommodate each individual user according to what is best for them. I have really bad adhd and so I think I end up noticing it more because I’ve had to build all the tools I rely on myself and realized how not at all powerful the existing solutions actually are at molding themselves to the user’s needs rather than vice versa. - I need progressive reminders for deadlines, increasing in frequency when the measure of percent completed and time to deadline gets worse. - I need undismissable reminders, if an important message comes in and I miss it it’s gone forever. - I need 15, 5, and 1 minute warnings for meetings. - I need daily reminders of the things I should be working on that automatically expire so they don’t become noise. - I need my tools to yell at me if I try to push a commit with a not descriptive enough message, don’t tag a card, and then auto move it to MR once I take it off draft. - I need when people post messages in the channel looking for reviews that it adds to my daily reminder list and goes off it once it’s merged. - I need reminders on Friday that I should spend the afternoon prepping cards for handoffs instead of working them. - I need to yeet random messages into different lists so I can remember things like “found a big make card for it” or “idea for 20% time.” - I need a weekly report of all the commits I made, cards I touched, and conversations I had so I can take them to my 1-1. - I need a thing to pull out emails to specific groups and forward them to our group slack otherwise no one will see it. - I need non critical alerts to also show up on my daily reminder list that drop off it once it’s ack’d or a card is made for it. - I need alerts when there’s activity on my MRs that are sent as messages and go to my list rather than one of my (literally) 50k weekly emails. - I need the group lunch order to ping me when it’s actually time to order instead of when it’s announced. All the tools in their default states don’t actually do anything for you. They create more work and mental load than take it away.
- deterministic 4y ago
  Wow. That sounds like hell. You do have my honest sincere sympathy. I just keep a simple prioritised to-do list and it works for me. I have used it to manage everything from large projects to small personal projects.
- Nevermark 4y ago
ngoilapites 4y ago
What about the limitations of a human mind, and its needs for healthy patterns of frequency and intensity of tasks, are they considered in the design of these tools? Maybe one of the keys is here.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deterministic 4y ago
Collaboration is tricky. How much time you spend on it is really important. My rule of thumb is 5% of your time is optimum. More than that and the benefits start going down. Too much and you kill productivity. I have worked for a dysfunctional company that was so busy collaborating that nothing ever got done. Most large organisations seems to “work” that way. Lots of meetings, reports, feedback and other “collaborations” resulting in nothing getting actually done.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
Can't wait until we replace middle managers with chatgpt
- creakingstairs 4y ago
  I don't think we need ML for that. Replace your middle managers with the template below! I'm sorry you are having problems collaborating with {name}. I can see how {name}'s behaviours like {example} can make you feel {feeling}. Maybe you could try out {3 examples from a random Medium article}. I will also create a {some ceremony} meeting so we can talk how we can all be better aligned in the future.
travisgriggs 4y ago
> The metaverse isn’t working yet because it’s putting technological design before function. I think a little of this is inevitable. You have to date the cruel mistress of physics a little to discern the bounds of what’s realistic before you can really get into function. But more alarming/concerning to me is that we’ve become entrapped in a perverse local optimum in funding these efforts. Too often of late it turns into putting some form of surveillance economy over function, prematurely stifling the cycles needed to iterate on function.
dathinab 4y ago
but bad Software can encourage/reinforce bad practices and discourage good practices. A good example for this is Slack which is to some degree a manifestation for bad practices for technical communication (is okay for small talk I guess).

136 points by simonpure 4y ago

https://archive.vn/O2wk9 https://archive.vn/O2wk9

Tools facilitate the process, but can’t replace it. I wonder if there’s a measure for how well 2 GPT chat prompts collaborate with one another?

exit 4y ago
this brings to mind the recent announcement of cicero, which plays diplomacy: https://ai.facebook.com/research/cicero/ https://ai.facebook.com/research/cicero/

gwn7 4y ago

I know it's heartbreaking to accept, but there are some problems in the world that apps cannot help with.

fuzzfactor 4y ago
Roger. It's equally true that humans still hold the key to collaboration no matter how shitty the software tools try to be.
themitigating 4y ago
Why would anyone think otherwise? Why would it be heartbreaking? Edit: The parent was sarcasm, I jumped to a conclusion because I see so much hatred for tech
- monsieurbanana 4y ago
  That might have been sarcasm
  - gwn7 4y ago
    Thank you
- gwn7 4y ago
  It was a sarcastic comment alluding to the caricature of the tech bros who see nails everywhere for their hi-tech hammers.
mistermann 4y ago
"cannot help with" seems very unlikely to me, especially if "apps" is not constrained to that which currently exists, but even if constrained. Can you (or others) list a few examples?
- gwn7 4y ago
  I'm speaking in the present tense. Even if "apps" would be able to solve all our current problems in a hundred or a thousand years [1][2], I really don't have anything to say about that. I have no idea. [1]: Which imo would be delusionally optimistic to believe in [2]: And which would surely create new types of problems in the process > Can you (or others) list a few examples? For starters, the posted article illustrates one example.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    "there are some problems in the world that apps cannot help with" --> "able to solve all our current problems" I wonder if an app could help with this process that sits very deep in the stack, and has zillions of other services running on top of it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
andirk 4y ago
Apple c. 2010 disagrees [0]. They registered "There's an app for that" as a trademark. I lost my phone in an Uber yesterday so now I have no apps. [0] https://www.wired.com/2010/10/app-for-that/ https://www.wired.com/2010/10/app-for-that/
- gwn7 4y ago
  Oops, isn't there an app to recover lost phones in Uber cars?
  - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
    https://www.apple.com/icloud/find-my/ https://www.apple.com/icloud/find-my/
    - gwn7 4y ago
      Finding and recovering are different things ;)
6510 4y ago
If you have infinite monkeys with type writers and sufficient time, other problems will seem insignificant.
- gwn7 4y ago
  If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

robg 4y ago

So true, when to interrupt or work together or stay focused is the biggest productivity challenge for teams. Technology is just a communication medium today, intent is the holy grail of collaboration.

mr_tristan 4y ago

Technology is often very, very distracting, and everyone feels it. I've noticed that we've hit a point in my team where juniors don't even feel comfortable asking questions in a team channel, because they think it might add to the noise. It isn't just that they don't want to "look dumb", but they genuinely don't want to bother a senior engineer. So, paradoxically, the low-effort nature of Slack has actually created barriers to communication in this case. (I have no idea how common this is, but I suspect, at very big companies, there are similar dynamics.) One solution I've found as a more senior engineer is to force a working session with a junior regularly. Like, we're not there to do anything specific, just work on something together. This ends up becoming a much more comfortable space for them to open up with all their questions. Tech really isn't a direct cause of real social problems, but often just presents distractions, which can add up over time. Phones have just taken us to a point where tech is just always with us, thus, we've hit some kind of "maximum distract-ability" point. But the real solution isn't to really ban new tech, it's just to learn how to identify and avoid letting it distract us further.

Rayhem 4y ago
> Like, we're not there to do anything specific, just work on something together. I keep lobbying for "office hours" like this at every single one of our retrospectives and it gets zero traction. My juniors have mentioned how hungry they are to learn more about the craft and they love it when I drag them into conference rooms for impromptu brainstorming/lecturing, but even then I get no votes for implementing office hours. I'm eternally puzzled.
Waterluvian 4y ago
One thing I found that helps in some cases, that I wish was said (and actually practiced) when I was a junior developer, is, “my main job is to help you get comfortable with everything and help you be successful. Everything else about my job is basically just filler for whenever you don’t need my direct attention. Never ever feel like you’re inconveniencing me because helping you is my job.”
- adambyrtek 4y ago

pinkywinky763 4y ago

This is because collaboration is multidimensional. Software really struggles to replicate that. It's a hard problem.

donutshop 4y ago

This is still relevant https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDrZEKCWwAAG_Ty?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDrZEKCWwAAG_Ty?format=jpg&name=...

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
It looks like this classic has finally run down the curtain and shuffled off this mortal coil, but it is still relevant: https://web.archive.org/web/20220328095158/https://internetisshit.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220328095158/https://interneti...
geoduck14 4y ago
The Pointy Haired Boss has become ChatGPT
- cratermoon 4y ago
  PHB would say "let's use ChatGPT"

kkfx 4y ago

Humans hold part of the key, human organization another, quality/design of tools around human organization do the rest. Modern tools are made to "keep user on our platform", witch is a very BAD thing for collaboration, modern tools tend to be all walled gardens, as a result collaboration with the world is VERY BAD and so on. Let's imaging an international payment system NOT designed around brokers with a gazillion of proprietary platforms but a COMMON API, let's say similar to OpenBank, where ANYONE, not only financial institutions participate. Than payments would be far simpler for anyone, so they do their part to help collaboration for some activities. Let's say we cooperate with plain text files, so we do not have formatting issues, version issues etc common on crappy WYSIWYG platform. Another part of collaboration became easier and so on. YES, this tools are part of the game because they are part of the workflow, it's not just specific sharing tools. Physical environment is part of the game as well: if we are in comfortable places with comfy tools we collaborate better. There is no holistic approach takeable by single companies, simply the platform model is nice for the platform owner business but harmful for the society and the more we advance the more we cut small part of it to allow collaboration. It's about time to admit that and start change course a bit more seriously...

sjducb 4y ago
For a minute I thought you were making a case for crypto

exit 4y ago

> It’s important to frame the plethora of technological platforms and applications which have flooded increasingly into the workplace as only ever as good as the human minds using them. Nothing can replace this—the technology is a utility to augment the creativity and dynamics of what happens when people work together. (emphasis mine) i think this disregards the synergistic effects technology can have. in particular, "good software" can formalise and make explicit processes which humans otherwise struggle to manage through tacit communication and "norms". more than augmenting, we extend our capacities through technology. in many ways this defines our species.

User23 4y ago

I’ve yet to find a project management system that’s lower impedance for developers than index cards for the backlog and sticky notes for task progress. PMs hate it because it requires them to stay directly involved and do their own data aggregation instead of just autogenerating reports that are of absolutely no value to the people actually doing the work.

fatnoah 4y ago
When I ran Engineering for a startup with 6 different software teams, I resorted to index cards + sticky notes on the exterior wall of my office. It was a great visual display of status that everyone, including those not in the tech org, could understand. The Engineers found it very satisfying to physically move the tickets themselves.
wpietri 4y ago
I am a huge fan of index cards! For those curious, I wrote up an example of I use them: https://williampietri.com/writing/2015/the-big-board/ https://williampietri.com/writing/2015/the-big-board/ I'm working with a new team and for a while the priorities have been murky. But we got everybody in a room and I broke out the index cards and sharpies, making everybody write down things they care about and put them strict linear order. It was way more effective than any online tool I have ever used. Since we work remotely I'll be putting those cards into an electronic tool (KanbanFlow if I get my druthers; Jira if I have to). But the level of participation and the speed of getting to consensus via index cards is unmatched.
deterministic 4y ago
My #1 proven-in-battle management tool is a humble prioritised to-do list. I have used it for managing large teams and for personal projects. It is simple. It works. Love it.

secondlifeagain 4y ago

Ugh. Why was this posted here? > All of which brings us back to the human in the machine age. As long as collaboration technology is underpinned by collaboration management in the next phase of work, the teams that come together can get their work done. Whether in-person, in-cyberspace or in between. This is obvious. Plus it's an ad for their book. Such a poorly written article with so much fluff. Can we let this die off and move off the front page?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

xipho 4y ago

We consciously call those who use our services "collaborators", we're on equal-footing, to the point of not trying to say "service" (when it is). This week we just met with a potential group of users of our open-source software, that we also offer free as a service. In the area they are exploring it has some shortcomings, and is the newest of the bunch in terms of features, overall use in that manner, etc. When we asked, "Why aren't you using X, or Y (you should consider them, they are good too!)?", and "What features are compelling you to use 'us'?", the answer came back "we like you, people, you talked to us, we know others who use your tools, and we like them too". Features, lack there-of, etc. just were not the clincher, even when we said repeatedly said "but we can't do that!". The important bit was they perceived they were joining a community of like-minded folk, who they liked. Not surprising, it's our mission to promote this very idea, but it was also the first time we heard it stated so bluntly.

olivermarks 4y ago

There are way too many academics, curators and theorists in the collaboration theories world. Way too many VCs and tech start ups have taken them too seriously. It's like the old joke 'an economist can tell you a 1000 ways to make love but has never touched another person'. The reality with collaboration strategies (which I was heavily involved with last decade) is that it all about context, scale, the people involved, the goals, overcoming silos and rivalries etc. The technology enablers are not wildly important except to choose tools that don't impede. Playing wackamole with 57 varieties of Slack channel to make sure you are not missing anything vitally important is not efficient collaboration and a huge time suck. As long as the academic chattering classes keep convincing VCs to pour money into yet more collab start ups there will continue to be new generations of not very useful tools and the low bar of msft teams and email/doc culture will continue to survive. Glacial pace, groundhog day film like deja vu experiences in this world as I'm sure many have experienced on HN...

CrypticShift 4y ago
Ok I agree that software is not the primary enabler. But let's just pause on these tools. For you : - On the one hand, mainstream collaborative tools are "low-bar", and Big Tech is responsible for its "Glacial pace". - On the other hand, "new generations" are growing too wildly, and "are not very useful", and "academic chattering" is responsible for it. The second point is supposed the be the "market" solution to the first. You seem to think this is not the case, because of misguided academics, curators and theorists. Would you care to cite some (of the worst) examples ?
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
> an economist can tell you a 1000 ways to make love but has never touched another person I was always partial to Brendan Behan's famous quote: > “Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves.”
- andirk 4y ago
  Is that considered one of the best quotes ever? Because I am using it but will likely botch it each time yet still get the point across.

Spivak 4y ago

I think one of the big issues that collaboration and productivity apps miss is that they’re supposed to be tools that help and accommodate each individual user according to what is best for them. I have really bad adhd and so I think I end up noticing it more because I’ve had to build all the tools I rely on myself and realized how not at all powerful the existing solutions actually are at molding themselves to the user’s needs rather than vice versa. - I need progressive reminders for deadlines, increasing in frequency when the measure of percent completed and time to deadline gets worse. - I need undismissable reminders, if an important message comes in and I miss it it’s gone forever. - I need 15, 5, and 1 minute warnings for meetings. - I need daily reminders of the things I should be working on that automatically expire so they don’t become noise. - I need my tools to yell at me if I try to push a commit with a not descriptive enough message, don’t tag a card, and then auto move it to MR once I take it off draft. - I need when people post messages in the channel looking for reviews that it adds to my daily reminder list and goes off it once it’s merged. - I need reminders on Friday that I should spend the afternoon prepping cards for handoffs instead of working them. - I need to yeet random messages into different lists so I can remember things like “found a big make card for it” or “idea for 20% time.” - I need a weekly report of all the commits I made, cards I touched, and conversations I had so I can take them to my 1-1. - I need a thing to pull out emails to specific groups and forward them to our group slack otherwise no one will see it. - I need non critical alerts to also show up on my daily reminder list that drop off it once it’s ack’d or a card is made for it. - I need alerts when there’s activity on my MRs that are sent as messages and go to my list rather than one of my (literally) 50k weekly emails. - I need the group lunch order to ping me when it’s actually time to order instead of when it’s announced. All the tools in their default states don’t actually do anything for you. They create more work and mental load than take it away.

deterministic 4y ago
Wow. That sounds like hell. You do have my honest sincere sympathy. I just keep a simple prioritised to-do list and it works for me. I have used it to manage everything from large projects to small personal projects.
Nevermark 4y ago

ngoilapites 4y ago

What about the limitations of a human mind, and its needs for healthy patterns of frequency and intensity of tasks, are they considered in the design of these tools? Maybe one of the keys is here.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deterministic 4y ago

Collaboration is tricky. How much time you spend on it is really important. My rule of thumb is 5% of your time is optimum. More than that and the benefits start going down. Too much and you kill productivity. I have worked for a dysfunctional company that was so busy collaborating that nothing ever got done. Most large organisations seems to “work” that way. Lots of meetings, reports, feedback and other “collaborations” resulting in nothing getting actually done.

jokethrowaway 4y ago

Can't wait until we replace middle managers with chatgpt

creakingstairs 4y ago
I don't think we need ML for that. Replace your middle managers with the template below! I'm sorry you are having problems collaborating with {name}. I can see how {name}'s behaviours like {example} can make you feel {feeling}. Maybe you could try out {3 examples from a random Medium article}. I will also create a {some ceremony} meeting so we can talk how we can all be better aligned in the future.

travisgriggs 4y ago

> The metaverse isn’t working yet because it’s putting technological design before function. I think a little of this is inevitable. You have to date the cruel mistress of physics a little to discern the bounds of what’s realistic before you can really get into function. But more alarming/concerning to me is that we’ve become entrapped in a perverse local optimum in funding these efforts. Too often of late it turns into putting some form of surveillance economy over function, prematurely stifling the cycles needed to iterate on function.

dathinab 4y ago

but bad Software can encourage/reinforce bad practices and discourage good practices. A good example for this is Slack which is to some degree a manifestation for bad practices for technical communication (is okay for small talk I guess).