9 ms·

My plane is not trackable without using non-public data

66 points by MzHN 4y ago

Kim_Bruning 4y ago
Isn't ADS-B mandatory in the USA since January 1st 2020? Definitely for IFR... edit 1: Presumably should be visible here, if airborne... https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ac70d2 https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ac70d2 edit 2: TIL about privacy ICAO, but not sure how effective. https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privacy-icao-address-pia/ https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privac... edit 3: Also seeing this jet listed. (N-628TS) https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a835af https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a835af , Seem to be a couple of jets used by elon musk and/or spacex. YMMV. At least some of them are trackable at least.
- bradhe 4y ago
  Looks like the popular ADS-B aggregators have deleted the data "at the request of the operator" which makes it sleazy at best to call it "private data." - https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n900sx https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n900sx - https://de.flightaware.com/live/flight/N900SX https://de.flightaware.com/live/flight/N900SX
  - counttheforks 4y ago
    How does that make the data non-public? His plane is still broadcasting it into the air and anyone with an antenna can pick it up and share the already public information. Sure, a few of them have been bullied by Elon into not doing so. But that doesn't make the information non-public. It just makes Elon a sleazebag who can't be trusted to hold his word.
    - bradhe 4y ago
      I agree--it's public data that has been removed. It's disingenuous (at best) to call it private data. I clarified my position in my original comment.
- MzHN 4y ago
  Do I understand this correctly https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privacy-icao-address-pia/ https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privac... So PIA in a nutshell means that you can request a private identifier for your plane, that is not publicly linkable to you. And if the identifier is compromised, you can request a new one. Which would make the identifier itself, and its real-time location, public information, but the knowledge of who owns the identifier would remain as private information.
  - richbell 4y ago
    > Which would make the identifier itself, and its real-time location, public information, but the knowledge of who owns the identifier would remain as private information. Yes and no. Tracking airplanes is something hobbyists have been doing for decades; there are people who hang out by airports and record every flight in and out. The PIA program can be useful for realtime masking but the information is far from secret — nor should it be, imo. > "Elon Musk, for example, has a Gulfstream and there's only so many people that fly that particular plane out of Brownsville, Texas and fly to the same airports," Sweeney told Insider. > ... > "These privacy mitigation programs are effective for real-time operations but do not guarantee absolute privacy," an FAA spokesperson said. "A flight can still be tracked in other ways such as a Freedom of Information Act request, www.LiveATC.com, ADSB Exchange, or a frequently departed airport." https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-appears-use-faa-tool-block-jet-tracking-twitter-2022-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-appears-use-faa-to...
    - woojoo666 4y ago
      Would this count as stalking though? I pulled up a definition on Google and > According to the United States Department of Justice (DOJ), the legal definition of "stalking" means "engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety or the safety of others or suffer substantial emotional distress." http://www.oxfordlegal.com/legal-definition-stalking/ http://www.oxfordlegal.com/legal-definition-stalking/ Using an antenna to figure out somebody's approximate location and publicizing it, when that somebody already has stalkers going after his children [1], seems like it would cause reasonable fear [1]: https://nypost.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-shares-video-of-crazy-stalker-who-climbed-vehicle-carrying-moguls-son/ https://nypost.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-shares-video-of-craz...
- aaaa4444 4y ago
  I have seen some planes that were not broadcasting any signals... Maybe FBI.
  - bradhe 4y ago
    Yes, some military and government aircraft are exempt from this requirement. It's otherwise illegal to disable ADS-B.
    - _moof 4y ago
      This is only sort of true. While not having ADS-B Out does limit where you can fly, it is not illegal to fly a civil aircraft without ADS-B Out equipment. The following rules are the most relevant: If your aircraft is equipped with operable ADS-B Out equipment, it is illegal not to turn it on. 14 CFR 91.225(f). If you wish to fly in Class A, B, or C airspace, within a Mode C veil, or in Class E airspace above 10,000', you must have ADS-B Out. 91.225(a) and (d). There is no rule implementing a blanket requirement for all civil aircraft to have ADS-B Out. You would be surprised how much airspace this leaves open to aircraft without ADS-B Out. You can in fact fly across the entire country, legally, without it. And in my experience ATC could not care less whether you have ADS-B Out. 91.225 is riddled with "unless authorized by ATC," and practically speaking, in thousands of hours of flying I have never seen an aircraft turned away because of a lack of ADS-B Out. I've asked some controllers about this directly and it makes no difference to them. EDIT: I should add that in Musk's case this ADS-B business is all a little bit of a red herring, because the second you get radar services, your data is public regardless of ADS-B status.
mehphp 4y ago
Whatever you think of Elon up until this point, I don't see how you can find him reliable/trustworthy. He specifically said that @elonjet was ok and then reversed course on that. He's obviously a liar at minimum.
- ImHereToVote 4y ago
- throwntoday 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - V__ 4y ago
    There is no proof that actually happend.
  - counttheforks 4y ago
    rules for thee but not for me. or: once an issue affects me personally it suddenly matters!
  - Jotra7 4y ago
  - quonn 4y ago
    But Elon is supporting extreme versions of free speech so he should be held to the same standard. Anything else is hypocritical.
    - taolegal 4y ago
      [flagged]
  - petee 4y ago
    Has anyone actually made a link between a plane being tracked, and his car somehow being tracked too? Probably not because they are unrelated, but it sure sounds scary in a short angry tweet
makeworld 4y ago
AFAIK if this is true then he's breaking the law, since ADS-B is legally required in the US.
- HillRat 4y ago
  The ultra-wealthy have complained for years about this. There's actually a method to get temporary and anonymous call signs for PJs through the FAA, but it's not supported internationally, so every time you leave US airspace you have to yank and reprogram the box. So basically Musk doesn't appear to be using the tools the government gives the ultra-wealthy to avoid scrutiny of their travel, probably because it's inconvenient, but he reserves the right to complain endlessly about it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tromp 4y ago
Time to use a twitter handle like @N628TS_Jet or @a835af_Jet and mention the obvious truth that Elon may or may not be on board...
- ancapsfascists 4y ago
  All such accounts have been banned, as well as accounts that mention said accounts.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    Are we at that point where the accounts that mention those who mentioned said accounts are banned yet? Twitter was banning journalists last night so I imagine they are going to be banning journalists talking about the banning of journalists. We're going to have to rename the Streisand Effect before the end of all this.
    - trynewideas 4y ago
      At least one of the journalists suspended last night had just retweeted another journalist's post that had screenshot the @joinmastodon post linking to ElonJet there.
  - milesdyson_phd 4y ago
    TjYyOFRT b64 for any enterprising individuals that want to see how good their detection is
bandyaboot 4y ago
De-anonymized public data is still public data.
looping__lui 4y ago
If you are ok with Elon Musk (or any other plane) being trackable, you should be ok to have your license plate tracked and your movements published wherever you go.
- yunohn 4y ago
  But Elon Musk’s license plate and movements are not being tracked?
- aaomidi 4y ago
  I’m fine with planes being tracked, I’m not necessarily fine with cars being tracked. Cars don’t have to broadcast their location to not get blown up by air defense. Planes do. And we’re legally allowed to listen to all wireless frequencies.
  - looping__lui 4y ago
    Your argument doesn’t make sense. If tracking plane registrations and making that data publicly available is ok to you - you should also be fine to have your license plate scanned and your movements made publicly available to everyone. Otherwise you are a hypocrite. Broadcasting your location to “get avoided being blown up by air defense” is just pure non-sense. Collision avoidance yes, but what country are you living in believing that the military would just shoot down planes from the sky?
    - aaomidi 4y ago
      Nearly every country will shoot a plane that’s not identifying itself out of the sky. Especially after 9/11. It’s actually policy in a lot of countries now. Generally would happen after a visual confirmation though. Anyway, cars don’t carry the same type of power that planes do. Cars are being tracked in most countries anyway, just that the data isn’t public. Finally there is nothing stopping you from making a “install this software on your webcams to monitor car locations” is there? If you’re so non hypocritical, go make that software and convince folks to run it, because that’s how airplane tracking happens. Unless you’re arguing that planes shouldn’t carry radios with them and that countries should be fine with unidentified planes in their air space?
popilewiz 4y ago
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
It goes beyond Musk in my opinion. The elite are annoyed that every peasant now has the technological ability to photograph and disseminate their actions and whereabouts. Show their lies and hypocrisy for all to see. The cat is out of the bag though. The same technology that allowed Musk to become a cult figure can be used against him.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- profstasiak 4y ago
  I recommend "Slowness" by Milan Kundera, he has some interesting thoughts about elite/popularity/celebrities. To be honest one can be pretty "elite" without gaining this amount of popularity. Elon is trying to become a celebrity with his actions so he shouldn't complain that people treat him like a celebrity. It's hard for me to give an example of anonymous US billionaires, but the richest guy in Poland is pretty much anonymous. Last time I checked there were no photos of him, no biography, and even people in his big company didn't know how he looks sometimes. Edit: His name is Tomasz Biernacki, here is a bloomberg article altough I can't pass the paywall https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-18/reclusive-billionaire-thrives-as-pandemic-shoppers-crowd-stores?leadSource=uverify%20wall https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-18/reclusive...
iosono88 4y ago

66 points by MzHN 4y ago

Isn't ADS-B mandatory in the USA since January 1st 2020? Definitely for IFR... edit 1: Presumably should be visible here, if airborne... https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ac70d2 https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ac70d2 edit 2: TIL about privacy ICAO, but not sure how effective. https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privacy-icao-address-pia/ https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privac... edit 3: Also seeing this jet listed. (N-628TS) https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a835af https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a835af , Seem to be a couple of jets used by elon musk and/or spacex. YMMV. At least some of them are trackable at least.

bradhe 4y ago
Looks like the popular ADS-B aggregators have deleted the data "at the request of the operator" which makes it sleazy at best to call it "private data." - https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n900sx https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n900sx - https://de.flightaware.com/live/flight/N900SX https://de.flightaware.com/live/flight/N900SX
- counttheforks 4y ago
  How does that make the data non-public? His plane is still broadcasting it into the air and anyone with an antenna can pick it up and share the already public information. Sure, a few of them have been bullied by Elon into not doing so. But that doesn't make the information non-public. It just makes Elon a sleazebag who can't be trusted to hold his word.
  - bradhe 4y ago
    I agree--it's public data that has been removed. It's disingenuous (at best) to call it private data. I clarified my position in my original comment.
MzHN 4y ago
Do I understand this correctly https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privacy-icao-address-pia/ https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privac... So PIA in a nutshell means that you can request a private identifier for your plane, that is not publicly linkable to you. And if the identifier is compromised, you can request a new one. Which would make the identifier itself, and its real-time location, public information, but the knowledge of who owns the identifier would remain as private information.
- richbell 4y ago
  > Which would make the identifier itself, and its real-time location, public information, but the knowledge of who owns the identifier would remain as private information. Yes and no. Tracking airplanes is something hobbyists have been doing for decades; there are people who hang out by airports and record every flight in and out. The PIA program can be useful for realtime masking but the information is far from secret — nor should it be, imo. > "Elon Musk, for example, has a Gulfstream and there's only so many people that fly that particular plane out of Brownsville, Texas and fly to the same airports," Sweeney told Insider. > ... > "These privacy mitigation programs are effective for real-time operations but do not guarantee absolute privacy," an FAA spokesperson said. "A flight can still be tracked in other ways such as a Freedom of Information Act request, www.LiveATC.com, ADSB Exchange, or a frequently departed airport." https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-appears-use-faa-tool-block-jet-tracking-twitter-2022-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-appears-use-faa-to...
  - woojoo666 4y ago
    Would this count as stalking though? I pulled up a definition on Google and > According to the United States Department of Justice (DOJ), the legal definition of "stalking" means "engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety or the safety of others or suffer substantial emotional distress." http://www.oxfordlegal.com/legal-definition-stalking/ http://www.oxfordlegal.com/legal-definition-stalking/ Using an antenna to figure out somebody's approximate location and publicizing it, when that somebody already has stalkers going after his children [1], seems like it would cause reasonable fear [1]: https://nypost.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-shares-video-of-crazy-stalker-who-climbed-vehicle-carrying-moguls-son/ https://nypost.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-shares-video-of-craz...
aaaa4444 4y ago
I have seen some planes that were not broadcasting any signals... Maybe FBI.
- bradhe 4y ago
  Yes, some military and government aircraft are exempt from this requirement. It's otherwise illegal to disable ADS-B.
  - _moof 4y ago
    This is only sort of true. While not having ADS-B Out does limit where you can fly, it is not illegal to fly a civil aircraft without ADS-B Out equipment. The following rules are the most relevant: If your aircraft is equipped with operable ADS-B Out equipment, it is illegal not to turn it on. 14 CFR 91.225(f). If you wish to fly in Class A, B, or C airspace, within a Mode C veil, or in Class E airspace above 10,000', you must have ADS-B Out. 91.225(a) and (d). There is no rule implementing a blanket requirement for all civil aircraft to have ADS-B Out. You would be surprised how much airspace this leaves open to aircraft without ADS-B Out. You can in fact fly across the entire country, legally, without it. And in my experience ATC could not care less whether you have ADS-B Out. 91.225 is riddled with "unless authorized by ATC," and practically speaking, in thousands of hours of flying I have never seen an aircraft turned away because of a lack of ADS-B Out. I've asked some controllers about this directly and it makes no difference to them. EDIT: I should add that in Musk's case this ADS-B business is all a little bit of a red herring, because the second you get radar services, your data is public regardless of ADS-B status.

mehphp 4y ago

Whatever you think of Elon up until this point, I don't see how you can find him reliable/trustworthy. He specifically said that @elonjet was ok and then reversed course on that. He's obviously a liar at minimum.

ImHereToVote 4y ago
throwntoday 4y ago
[flagged]
- V__ 4y ago
  There is no proof that actually happend.
- counttheforks 4y ago
  rules for thee but not for me. or: once an issue affects me personally it suddenly matters!
- Jotra7 4y ago
- quonn 4y ago
  But Elon is supporting extreme versions of free speech so he should be held to the same standard. Anything else is hypocritical.
  - taolegal 4y ago
    [flagged]
- petee 4y ago
  Has anyone actually made a link between a plane being tracked, and his car somehow being tracked too? Probably not because they are unrelated, but it sure sounds scary in a short angry tweet

makeworld 4y ago

AFAIK if this is true then he's breaking the law, since ADS-B is legally required in the US.

HillRat 4y ago
The ultra-wealthy have complained for years about this. There's actually a method to get temporary and anonymous call signs for PJs through the FAA, but it's not supported internationally, so every time you leave US airspace you have to yank and reprogram the box. So basically Musk doesn't appear to be using the tools the government gives the ultra-wealthy to avoid scrutiny of their travel, probably because it's inconvenient, but he reserves the right to complain endlessly about it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tromp 4y ago

Time to use a twitter handle like @N628TS_Jet or @a835af_Jet and mention the obvious truth that Elon may or may not be on board...

ancapsfascists 4y ago
All such accounts have been banned, as well as accounts that mention said accounts.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Are we at that point where the accounts that mention those who mentioned said accounts are banned yet? Twitter was banning journalists last night so I imagine they are going to be banning journalists talking about the banning of journalists. We're going to have to rename the Streisand Effect before the end of all this.
  - trynewideas 4y ago
    At least one of the journalists suspended last night had just retweeted another journalist's post that had screenshot the @joinmastodon post linking to ElonJet there.
- milesdyson_phd 4y ago
  TjYyOFRT b64 for any enterprising individuals that want to see how good their detection is

bandyaboot 4y ago

De-anonymized public data is still public data.

looping__lui 4y ago

If you are ok with Elon Musk (or any other plane) being trackable, you should be ok to have your license plate tracked and your movements published wherever you go.

yunohn 4y ago
But Elon Musk’s license plate and movements are not being tracked?
aaomidi 4y ago
I’m fine with planes being tracked, I’m not necessarily fine with cars being tracked. Cars don’t have to broadcast their location to not get blown up by air defense. Planes do. And we’re legally allowed to listen to all wireless frequencies.
- looping__lui 4y ago
  Your argument doesn’t make sense. If tracking plane registrations and making that data publicly available is ok to you - you should also be fine to have your license plate scanned and your movements made publicly available to everyone. Otherwise you are a hypocrite. Broadcasting your location to “get avoided being blown up by air defense” is just pure non-sense. Collision avoidance yes, but what country are you living in believing that the military would just shoot down planes from the sky?
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    Nearly every country will shoot a plane that’s not identifying itself out of the sky. Especially after 9/11. It’s actually policy in a lot of countries now. Generally would happen after a visual confirmation though. Anyway, cars don’t carry the same type of power that planes do. Cars are being tracked in most countries anyway, just that the data isn’t public. Finally there is nothing stopping you from making a “install this software on your webcams to monitor car locations” is there? If you’re so non hypocritical, go make that software and convince folks to run it, because that’s how airplane tracking happens. Unless you’re arguing that planes shouldn’t carry radios with them and that countries should be fine with unidentified planes in their air space?

popilewiz 4y ago

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

It goes beyond Musk in my opinion. The elite are annoyed that every peasant now has the technological ability to photograph and disseminate their actions and whereabouts. Show their lies and hypocrisy for all to see. The cat is out of the bag though. The same technology that allowed Musk to become a cult figure can be used against him.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
profstasiak 4y ago
I recommend "Slowness" by Milan Kundera, he has some interesting thoughts about elite/popularity/celebrities. To be honest one can be pretty "elite" without gaining this amount of popularity. Elon is trying to become a celebrity with his actions so he shouldn't complain that people treat him like a celebrity. It's hard for me to give an example of anonymous US billionaires, but the richest guy in Poland is pretty much anonymous. Last time I checked there were no photos of him, no biography, and even people in his big company didn't know how he looks sometimes. Edit: His name is Tomasz Biernacki, here is a bloomberg article altough I can't pass the paywall https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-18/reclusive-billionaire-thrives-as-pandemic-shoppers-crowd-stores?leadSource=uverify%20wall https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-18/reclusive...

iosono88 4y ago