6 ms·

While I agree with your last paragraph I would like to quote Robert Caro talking about power: "But although the cliche says that power always corrupts, what is

While I agree with your last paragraph I would like to quote Robert Caro talking about power: "But although the cliche says that power always corrupts, what is seldom said ... is that power always reveals. When a man is climbing, trying to persuade others to give him power, concealment is necessary. ... But as a man obtains more power, camouflage becomes less necessary." Elon is definitely a victim of capitalism and patriarchy to some degree, as are other billionaire. But they are also the main beneficiaries ans can wipe away their tears with hundred dollar bills, blackjack and hookers, so my empathy has limitations.

adwn 4y ago
> Elon is definitely a victim of capitalism and patriarchy to some degree, as are other billionaire. I'm curious to know why you're bringing the concept of "patriarchy" into this discussion? Do you think Musk's gender has anything to do with his actions and behavior?
- aaomidi 4y ago
  Obviously the gender role he’s playing is the most toxic parts of masculinity. This is effectively a Elon indulging in the worst forms of toxic masculinity. Meanwhile he’s also humiliating himself. I don’t think he yet realizes that people aren’t going to forget this. Every interaction he has with someone he’s going to feel naked due to how much of his hand he’s let people read.
  - prohobo 4y ago
    I'm confused here, since when does any form of masculinity include emotional flailing, gossiping, attention seeking, virtue signalling, manipulation, petty grievances, etc?
    - feet 4y ago
      That's the toxic part
    - nickthegreek 4y ago
      Sounds like you just describing many qualities that “super masculine” Trump showed. Those are in fact toxic behaviors of rich men.
    - igorkraw 4y ago
      All of these is just what we call being overcome with passion, fearlessly spreading truth, daring to step into the public arena, demonstrating personal values, cunning political manoeuvring and sticking up for yourself/revenge if we find them pathetic. The point of toxic masculinity is that the things we valorize as "traditionally male" (e.g. famously, being a rock without emotions except maybe revenge, lust and rage) are not healthy ways of dealing with bad things. Whether he does it consciously or not, if your model of musk is a Macho whose "honor" has been impinged (by himself, but also public snipes at e.g. his private jet while posing as the man to save the climate with Tesla) and who's pettily trying to pettily re-assert his "manliness" then you've been getting a lot of ROI out of the predictions that has allowed you so far.
      - prohobo 4y ago
        What I listed are actually toxic feminine behaviors. That term doesn't get used a lot because people found a hammer and think everything's a nail. Toxic masculinity is manifested through pathological subduing of emotions, mindless stubbornness, excessive pride, inappropriate violence, misogyny, and homophobia. If you want to apply the concept of toxic masculinity to someone it would be more appropriate for Bezos or Andrew Tate. Musk isn't behaving like that at all, and I don't like your casual misapplication of it because I can see that it's simply politically easy, misandrist, and above all, wrong.
        maxbond 4y ago
        Every social construct with show inconsistency under intense scrutiny. Humans are not consistent and masculinity has as many expressions as there are men. That's not the point.
      - philosopher1234 4y ago
        I've loved your comments in this thread. Very well put
  - ramsan 4y ago
    I’m really sick and tired of this misandry bullshit. Musk is as masculine as Elton John.
    - igorkraw 4y ago
      That you think Elton John isn't masculine says more about toxic masculinity than you might have intended. Why exactly is he not "masculine"?
    - bpanon 4y ago
      How do you define masculinity?
- igorkraw 4y ago
  The sister comment has said it, already but to add to what they said, in our society, these two are intricately linked - think of the fact that most high paying or high jobs are not compatible with participating in personally raising a family. Or the fact that (with regards to Elon) he's using the archetype of the family protector (intentionally or not) to justify going after Elonjet
d_theorist 4y ago
I think everybody knows that you can’t solve emotional/spiritual problems with such things as “hundred dollar bills”, “blackjack”, or “hookers”. In fact those things just make matters worse. But it seems often forgotten. This comment has nothing to do with Elon specifically.
- adwn 4y ago
  Well said. On social media, you can often witness the sentiment "They're rich, therefore their emotional problems must be fake". Well, money solves many problems, but it also creates some new problems, and it can't fix sadness, won't help you find meaning in life, and doesn't satisfy your desire to be loved. (This is neither an excuse nor a justification for Musk's behavior)
  - igorkraw 4y ago
    They can also buy therapy or relinquish their wealt if they feel empty, but the inverse (relinquishing poverty) is much harder. At a certain point (and billionaires definitely cross that), I still have empathy for them, but I think personal responsibility makes it "their problem" while the damage they can do to others is more important.
    - adwn 4y ago
      Therapy is not like an Ibuprofen that you can pop in and your headache disappears after half an hour. And "relinquishing their wealth" wouldn't automatically make them feel less sad, less empty, or less unloved. Rich people don't have these problems because of their wealth, they have them despite their wealth, because their brain is still that of a human – you know, like for the rest of us.
      - _djo_ 4y ago
        Yes, some empathy for those going through difficult personal times is healthy. But when people allow their problems to harm others, we must by necessity become harder on them, try to establish protective boundaries, and hold them to account. When someone is extremely powerful, whether through wealth, company position, or political office, the harm they can inflict increases exponentially and therefore we need to hold them to a much higher standard. They have all the resources they need to handle their personal problems through professional help and also the freedom to step back from having power and influence over others if they can't. Having empathy for even the powerful is fine and well, as long as we don't forget to first and foremost have empathy for those they're hurting.

adwn 4y ago

> Elon is definitely a victim of capitalism and patriarchy to some degree, as are other billionaire. I'm curious to know why you're bringing the concept of "patriarchy" into this discussion? Do you think Musk's gender has anything to do with his actions and behavior?

aaomidi 4y ago
Obviously the gender role he’s playing is the most toxic parts of masculinity. This is effectively a Elon indulging in the worst forms of toxic masculinity. Meanwhile he’s also humiliating himself. I don’t think he yet realizes that people aren’t going to forget this. Every interaction he has with someone he’s going to feel naked due to how much of his hand he’s let people read.
- prohobo 4y ago
  I'm confused here, since when does any form of masculinity include emotional flailing, gossiping, attention seeking, virtue signalling, manipulation, petty grievances, etc?
  - feet 4y ago
    That's the toxic part
  - nickthegreek 4y ago
    Sounds like you just describing many qualities that “super masculine” Trump showed. Those are in fact toxic behaviors of rich men.
  - igorkraw 4y ago
    All of these is just what we call being overcome with passion, fearlessly spreading truth, daring to step into the public arena, demonstrating personal values, cunning political manoeuvring and sticking up for yourself/revenge if we find them pathetic. The point of toxic masculinity is that the things we valorize as "traditionally male" (e.g. famously, being a rock without emotions except maybe revenge, lust and rage) are not healthy ways of dealing with bad things. Whether he does it consciously or not, if your model of musk is a Macho whose "honor" has been impinged (by himself, but also public snipes at e.g. his private jet while posing as the man to save the climate with Tesla) and who's pettily trying to pettily re-assert his "manliness" then you've been getting a lot of ROI out of the predictions that has allowed you so far.
    - prohobo 4y ago
      What I listed are actually toxic feminine behaviors. That term doesn't get used a lot because people found a hammer and think everything's a nail. Toxic masculinity is manifested through pathological subduing of emotions, mindless stubbornness, excessive pride, inappropriate violence, misogyny, and homophobia. If you want to apply the concept of toxic masculinity to someone it would be more appropriate for Bezos or Andrew Tate. Musk isn't behaving like that at all, and I don't like your casual misapplication of it because I can see that it's simply politically easy, misandrist, and above all, wrong.
      - maxbond 4y ago
        Every social construct with show inconsistency under intense scrutiny. Humans are not consistent and masculinity has as many expressions as there are men. That's not the point.
    - philosopher1234 4y ago
      I've loved your comments in this thread. Very well put
- ramsan 4y ago
  I’m really sick and tired of this misandry bullshit. Musk is as masculine as Elton John.
  - igorkraw 4y ago
    That you think Elton John isn't masculine says more about toxic masculinity than you might have intended. Why exactly is he not "masculine"?
  - bpanon 4y ago
    How do you define masculinity?
igorkraw 4y ago
The sister comment has said it, already but to add to what they said, in our society, these two are intricately linked - think of the fact that most high paying or high jobs are not compatible with participating in personally raising a family. Or the fact that (with regards to Elon) he's using the archetype of the family protector (intentionally or not) to justify going after Elonjet

d_theorist 4y ago

I think everybody knows that you can’t solve emotional/spiritual problems with such things as “hundred dollar bills”, “blackjack”, or “hookers”. In fact those things just make matters worse. But it seems often forgotten. This comment has nothing to do with Elon specifically.

adwn 4y ago
Well said. On social media, you can often witness the sentiment "They're rich, therefore their emotional problems must be fake". Well, money solves many problems, but it also creates some new problems, and it can't fix sadness, won't help you find meaning in life, and doesn't satisfy your desire to be loved. (This is neither an excuse nor a justification for Musk's behavior)
- igorkraw 4y ago
  They can also buy therapy or relinquish their wealt if they feel empty, but the inverse (relinquishing poverty) is much harder. At a certain point (and billionaires definitely cross that), I still have empathy for them, but I think personal responsibility makes it "their problem" while the damage they can do to others is more important.
  - adwn 4y ago
    Therapy is not like an Ibuprofen that you can pop in and your headache disappears after half an hour. And "relinquishing their wealth" wouldn't automatically make them feel less sad, less empty, or less unloved. Rich people don't have these problems because of their wealth, they have them despite their wealth, because their brain is still that of a human – you know, like for the rest of us.
    - _djo_ 4y ago
      Yes, some empathy for those going through difficult personal times is healthy. But when people allow their problems to harm others, we must by necessity become harder on them, try to establish protective boundaries, and hold them to account. When someone is extremely powerful, whether through wealth, company position, or political office, the harm they can inflict increases exponentially and therefore we need to hold them to a much higher standard. They have all the resources they need to handle their personal problems through professional help and also the freedom to step back from having power and influence over others if they can't. Having empathy for even the powerful is fine and well, as long as we don't forget to first and foremost have empathy for those they're hurting.