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> Watching Elon melt down in real time while pissing away $44 billion dollars is not something I ever expected. I don't think you can have the kind of wealth M

> Watching Elon melt down in real time while pissing away $44 billion dollars is not something I ever expected. I don't think you can have the kind of wealth Musk has without it changing who you are. I don't think his worthiness is even worth consideration, if you transferred that wealth to any of us we may handle it better or worse but it would invariably distort our decision making and worldview. When you change someone's opportunity set to include exercising arbitrary authority over others, their decisions will become more & more domineering. When he decided he was going to take over Twitter and start cracking skulls, he was indulging his worst instincts, and we've seen him slide further into an authoritarian frame of mind. Not to excuse Musk's actions, but he's a victim here too. I think he's had a rough few years; the pandemic was hard on all of us, and his divorce was presumably quite painful. The other day he was booed by a huge crowd; I don't care who you are, I believe such disdain by so many people has an effect on your mind. And of course his child was harassed immediately after - this seems to have been the last straw to trigger some kind of paranoid episode. It seems like he's convinced that there's a danger to himself and his family, and that he's gone into a really authoritarian headspace. I think the lesson we should take from this is that no single person should be trusted to have this sort of power.

iakh 4y ago
That's quite the generous interpretation even if the OP wasn't a posting about mastodon, a social network that directly competes with Twitter, and had nothing to do with any of the reasons you think Elon Musk is a victim in all of this.
- maxbond 4y ago
  I'm not defending him. I am a vocal Musk critic. I'll edit my comment to try to make that more clear. ETA: After taking a stab at it, I feel like the strength of my comment is in it's empathy to Musk; I feel that turning up the volume on it's criticism would damage it's purpose of expanding the critique from Musk to the systems that enabled him. I think the sibling comment with the Caro quote does a better job than I'd do with an edit, so I've upvoted that comment and left mine as is. If you have any suggestions though, I'm listening & willing to incorporate them. ETA2: I've also added a quote to make it clearer why I felt this was relevant to the parent comment.
  - dntrkv 4y ago
    I think that’s a reasonable and charitable interpretation (which is not a bad thing imo). I haven’t been much of a Musk fan for a while now, but I still think it’s important to recognize that he’s still human and he’s definitely going through some shit.
  - kybernetikos 4y ago
    Having to hedge basic humanity with a "while I'm not a fan" gets tiring. I think your comment is thoughtful and useful and not enabling as is.
igorkraw 4y ago
While I agree with your last paragraph I would like to quote Robert Caro talking about power: "But although the cliche says that power always corrupts, what is seldom said ... is that power always reveals. When a man is climbing, trying to persuade others to give him power, concealment is necessary. ... But as a man obtains more power, camouflage becomes less necessary." Elon is definitely a victim of capitalism and patriarchy to some degree, as are other billionaire. But they are also the main beneficiaries ans can wipe away their tears with hundred dollar bills, blackjack and hookers, so my empathy has limitations.
- adwn 4y ago
  > Elon is definitely a victim of capitalism and patriarchy to some degree, as are other billionaire. I'm curious to know why you're bringing the concept of "patriarchy" into this discussion? Do you think Musk's gender has anything to do with his actions and behavior?
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    Obviously the gender role he’s playing is the most toxic parts of masculinity. This is effectively a Elon indulging in the worst forms of toxic masculinity. Meanwhile he’s also humiliating himself. I don’t think he yet realizes that people aren’t going to forget this. Every interaction he has with someone he’s going to feel naked due to how much of his hand he’s let people read.
    - prohobo 4y ago
      I'm confused here, since when does any form of masculinity include emotional flailing, gossiping, attention seeking, virtue signalling, manipulation, petty grievances, etc?
      - feet 4y ago
        That's the toxic part
      - nickthegreek 4y ago
danaris 4y ago
> if you transferred that wealth to any of us we may handle it better or worse but it would invariably distort our decision making and worldview. Not only that, but the process of making that wealth for yourself both requires and fosters certain mindsets that are deeply unhealthy both for the individual and for society (through their influence on it). Just as a for instance, if I were ever to end up in a position (and I know many other people who would act similarly) where I was making, say, $1 million/year, I would first make sure that things in my life were arranged just so (pay off mortgages, buy higher-quality stuff, etc)...but this would only take me so far. Even if I changed my lifestyle significantly, within no more than a few years, I would find myself without significant new things to do with that money. At that point, my attention would turn to trying to put that money to as good a use as possible: improving other people's lives. In doing so, I would take myself out of a position to use that money as leverage to get even more money for myself. And again, I believe that many other people would do the same. To make oneself a billionaire requires one to be so insensitive to other people's needs, or so focused on increasing one's own dollar-denominated high score that one becomes blind to them, and instead turns it all inward. Then, of course, once one starts down the road of "I need more for me," it rewards doubling down on that mindset in various ways, thus effectively training the brain to be more and more selfish. (If I were to, through no specific effort of my own, end up with even one billion dollars, I can't even imagine what I would do with the vast majority of it. It would, indeed, distort my decision-making processes, but partly just because it's so far beyond anything I can reasonably conceive of.)
- ProjectArcturis 4y ago
  Exactly! I've been thinking along the same lines -- becoming a billionaire requires a person who will ignore the many offramps that occur along the way. Like, Elon could have retired after he sold his first company and had $20M liquid. But he rolled that over into a new company, again and again, like a pathological gambler on the world's best hot streak. Is life better as the world's (second) richest man vs just $20M? Maybe? It seems like you have a ton of new worries about your family's security, and you become inevitably embroiled in world politics, and a target for state intelligence agencies. But you've won the status wars, and rich people who you once admired now suck up to you. It takes a very specific personality type to choose that tradeoff.
jerryzh 4y ago
Not every rich man has same publicity as mask. It's basically his own choice and he should expect this.
Fnoord 4y ago
> Not to excuse Musk's actions, but he's a victim here too. When you look into them, perpetrators are a victim in some way, but legal-wise we look at responsibility. Musk is responsible for his actions here.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Agreed.
ChuckMcM 4y ago
I don't disagree with your statement that wealth changes people, I've watched many people, both close to me and mere acquaintances become suddenly wealthy from an equity liquidity event. And how it affected them varied wildly. Surprisingly, a very large number (perhaps the bulk) reached a level of wealth where they didn't have to work "for" someone any more and just stopped pursuing wealth and switched over to doing other stuff. I also find the effects on wives of rich men who in divorce became quite wealthy and how it affected their character. My unscientific sampling seems to suggest women handle it better than men. I don't know why that is, but I have noticed that many wealthy women I know don't tie their wealth to their self image. That is less common with the men I know. I always hope that people who become wealthy have enough self awareness to recognize changes in themselves but like the lyric in the song "Life's Been Good to Me" says, "It's tough to handle this fortune and fame; Everybody's so different, I haven't changed"
ninepoints 4y ago
Sorry but Musk was an insufferable individual long before he came into his current wealth (the most prominent examples I can think of is the manner in which he exaggerated his credentials/education). It might be more accurate to suppose that certain types of people are more likely to come into this sort of wealth.
- maxbond 4y ago
  He was quite wealthy when he faked those credentials. Of course, Musk was always quite wealthy, so that's not saying much. Would he be a jerk in a universe where he wasn't a successful entrepreneur? Maybe, I'm willing to accept the premise. Would he be an increasingly paranoid and conspiratorial authoritarian? Probably not. Do certain personality types tend to become wealthy more often than others? I'd say probably. But I don't think that's at odds with what I'm saying.

iakh 4y ago

That's quite the generous interpretation even if the OP wasn't a posting about mastodon, a social network that directly competes with Twitter, and had nothing to do with any of the reasons you think Elon Musk is a victim in all of this.

maxbond 4y ago
I'm not defending him. I am a vocal Musk critic. I'll edit my comment to try to make that more clear. ETA: After taking a stab at it, I feel like the strength of my comment is in it's empathy to Musk; I feel that turning up the volume on it's criticism would damage it's purpose of expanding the critique from Musk to the systems that enabled him. I think the sibling comment with the Caro quote does a better job than I'd do with an edit, so I've upvoted that comment and left mine as is. If you have any suggestions though, I'm listening & willing to incorporate them. ETA2: I've also added a quote to make it clearer why I felt this was relevant to the parent comment.
- dntrkv 4y ago
  I think that’s a reasonable and charitable interpretation (which is not a bad thing imo). I haven’t been much of a Musk fan for a while now, but I still think it’s important to recognize that he’s still human and he’s definitely going through some shit.
- kybernetikos 4y ago
  Having to hedge basic humanity with a "while I'm not a fan" gets tiring. I think your comment is thoughtful and useful and not enabling as is.

igorkraw 4y ago

While I agree with your last paragraph I would like to quote Robert Caro talking about power: "But although the cliche says that power always corrupts, what is seldom said ... is that power always reveals. When a man is climbing, trying to persuade others to give him power, concealment is necessary. ... But as a man obtains more power, camouflage becomes less necessary." Elon is definitely a victim of capitalism and patriarchy to some degree, as are other billionaire. But they are also the main beneficiaries ans can wipe away their tears with hundred dollar bills, blackjack and hookers, so my empathy has limitations.

adwn 4y ago
> Elon is definitely a victim of capitalism and patriarchy to some degree, as are other billionaire. I'm curious to know why you're bringing the concept of "patriarchy" into this discussion? Do you think Musk's gender has anything to do with his actions and behavior?
- aaomidi 4y ago
  Obviously the gender role he’s playing is the most toxic parts of masculinity. This is effectively a Elon indulging in the worst forms of toxic masculinity. Meanwhile he’s also humiliating himself. I don’t think he yet realizes that people aren’t going to forget this. Every interaction he has with someone he’s going to feel naked due to how much of his hand he’s let people read.
  - prohobo 4y ago
    I'm confused here, since when does any form of masculinity include emotional flailing, gossiping, attention seeking, virtue signalling, manipulation, petty grievances, etc?
    - feet 4y ago
      That's the toxic part
    - nickthegreek 4y ago

danaris 4y ago

> if you transferred that wealth to any of us we may handle it better or worse but it would invariably distort our decision making and worldview. Not only that, but the process of making that wealth for yourself both requires and fosters certain mindsets that are deeply unhealthy both for the individual and for society (through their influence on it). Just as a for instance, if I were ever to end up in a position (and I know many other people who would act similarly) where I was making, say, $1 million/year, I would first make sure that things in my life were arranged just so (pay off mortgages, buy higher-quality stuff, etc)...but this would only take me so far. Even if I changed my lifestyle significantly, within no more than a few years, I would find myself without significant new things to do with that money. At that point, my attention would turn to trying to put that money to as good a use as possible: improving other people's lives. In doing so, I would take myself out of a position to use that money as leverage to get even more money for myself. And again, I believe that many other people would do the same. To make oneself a billionaire requires one to be so insensitive to other people's needs, or so focused on increasing one's own dollar-denominated high score that one becomes blind to them, and instead turns it all inward. Then, of course, once one starts down the road of "I need more for me," it rewards doubling down on that mindset in various ways, thus effectively training the brain to be more and more selfish. (If I were to, through no specific effort of my own, end up with even one billion dollars, I can't even imagine what I would do with the vast majority of it. It would, indeed, distort my decision-making processes, but partly just because it's so far beyond anything I can reasonably conceive of.)

ProjectArcturis 4y ago
Exactly! I've been thinking along the same lines -- becoming a billionaire requires a person who will ignore the many offramps that occur along the way. Like, Elon could have retired after he sold his first company and had $20M liquid. But he rolled that over into a new company, again and again, like a pathological gambler on the world's best hot streak. Is life better as the world's (second) richest man vs just $20M? Maybe? It seems like you have a ton of new worries about your family's security, and you become inevitably embroiled in world politics, and a target for state intelligence agencies. But you've won the status wars, and rich people who you once admired now suck up to you. It takes a very specific personality type to choose that tradeoff.

jerryzh 4y ago

Not every rich man has same publicity as mask. It's basically his own choice and he should expect this.

Fnoord 4y ago

> Not to excuse Musk's actions, but he's a victim here too. When you look into them, perpetrators are a victim in some way, but legal-wise we look at responsibility. Musk is responsible for his actions here.

maxbond 4y ago
Agreed.

ChuckMcM 4y ago

I don't disagree with your statement that wealth changes people, I've watched many people, both close to me and mere acquaintances become suddenly wealthy from an equity liquidity event. And how it affected them varied wildly. Surprisingly, a very large number (perhaps the bulk) reached a level of wealth where they didn't have to work "for" someone any more and just stopped pursuing wealth and switched over to doing other stuff. I also find the effects on wives of rich men who in divorce became quite wealthy and how it affected their character. My unscientific sampling seems to suggest women handle it better than men. I don't know why that is, but I have noticed that many wealthy women I know don't tie their wealth to their self image. That is less common with the men I know. I always hope that people who become wealthy have enough self awareness to recognize changes in themselves but like the lyric in the song "Life's Been Good to Me" says, "It's tough to handle this fortune and fame; Everybody's so different, I haven't changed"

ninepoints 4y ago

Sorry but Musk was an insufferable individual long before he came into his current wealth (the most prominent examples I can think of is the manner in which he exaggerated his credentials/education). It might be more accurate to suppose that certain types of people are more likely to come into this sort of wealth.

maxbond 4y ago
He was quite wealthy when he faked those credentials. Of course, Musk was always quite wealthy, so that's not saying much. Would he be a jerk in a universe where he wasn't a successful entrepreneur? Maybe, I'm willing to accept the premise. Would he be an increasingly paranoid and conspiratorial authoritarian? Probably not. Do certain personality types tend to become wealthy more often than others? I'd say probably. But I don't think that's at odds with what I'm saying.