10 ms·

But aren't the coordinates of his plane public anyways? And wouldn't shutting down ElonJet account be enough, why all these journalists' accounts as well?

kevingadd 4y ago
Yeah, it was public ADS-B data. A lot of the suspended journalists never even posted his location, they just posted about the situation or the supposed stalker incident.
- TheHappyOddish 4y ago
  From what I've read, this is untrue. He has requested a privacy ICAO (https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privacy-icao-address-pia/ https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privac...), and as such the ownership was not public. The data published was not just ADS-B data, but ADS-B data + content intended to violate the specific privacy ICAO. I'm not defending Musks actions, simply providing additional context.
  - pera 4y ago
    Well ADS-B Exchange just got suspended (https://twitter.com/ADSBexchange https://twitter.com/ADSBexchange) so it seems that publishing public radio data is now against their TOS.
    - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
      I believe that ADS-B Exhange (like the suspended journalists) linked to ElonJet's Mastodon account. This is consistent with the policy - even if that policy isn't agreeable - and doesn't seem to indicate that publishing public radio data is banned.
      - lambic2 4y ago
        Is there any evidence/source that shows the suspended journalists actually linked ElonJet's Mastodon account? I thought they only mentioned ElonJet's Twitter handle.
        TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        That's what I've read, ironically on Twitter. The JoinMastodon account definitely did. This article from TC confirms: https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-suspends-mastodon-twitter-account-over-elonjet-tracking/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-suspends-mastodo... Also I get journalists are feeling threatened, but it's a shame to see such a clear emotionally charged article from TC, I used to trust them for unbiased tech reporting.
        lambic2 4y ago
        I'm curious, can you point me to a sentence that you find "emotionally charged"? I went over every sentence and every one just states some facts. I'm not seeing the emotionally charged part.
        lambic2 4y ago
        The article confirms that Elon suspends link to Mastodons, but doesn't say anything about the journalists posting links to the Mastodon account for ElonJen.
        TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        Apologies, the TC article states why the JoinMastodon account was suspended: > Twitter apparently suspended its open source competitor Mastodon from the service on Thursday afternoon. Just prior to its suspension, Mastodon (@joinmastodon) tweeted a link to the jet tracking account on its own service, according to archives.
    - rosnd 4y ago
      "publishing public radio data" could mean just about anything. Your phone constantly broadcasts it's serial number and location to everyone near you, would you therefore consider your location to be public information whenever you move around with your phone? Some people still use unencrypted wifi networks, is their traffic "public"? What about baby monitors? Do you think that unencrypted baby monitor traffic is "public" in any reasonable sense of the term?
      - Eisenstein 4y ago
        If your baby monitor signals go into my home and I am able to demodulate them into a clear signal then why shouldn't I be able to? With wifi, an unencrypted network is an open invitation to connect to it, as this is the way to connect through portals which transfer to encrypted tunnels. Intercepting other traffic on the network is not OK since you would be violating hacking laws since it isn't your network. Same thing with cell networks. Your phone broadcasts its data, which is perfectly legal to pick up, but if you have to use any network resources which aren't yours then it's a no-go. Overall, if it is being broadcast into my house I can capture it, but I can't send things back to the source and try and get it to do things. Your argument falls flat, sorry.
        rosnd 4y ago
        >If your baby monitor signals go into my home and I am able to demodulate them into a clear signal then why shouldn't I be able to? Do you genuinely believe that you being allowed to spy on to your neighbours unencrypted baby monitor is a good thing that's helpful for society at large? For example, in Finland this is legislated as follows: Section 37 – Confidentiality of radiocommunications (1) Radiocommunication is confidential and may be received only by those for whom it is intended. (46/2005) (2) Whoever receives or otherwise has information on a confidential radio transmission not intended for him/her must not wrongfully disclose it or make use of the knowledge of the contents or existence of the transmission. (3) The following are not considered to be confidential radiocommunications: ...1) initial transmissions of television and radio programmes; ...2) emergency calls; ...3) radiocommunications conducted using a public calling channel; ...4) the amateur service; ...5) shortwave radiocommunications in the 27 MHz frequency band; or any other radiocommunication intended for general reception. (46/2005) The penalty for violating this law is a court-determined fine. Do you think that this law is overall a net-positive or a net-negative for society? What good things come from you being able to listen to arbitrary transmissions intended for someone else?
  - _djo_ 4y ago
    This claim keeps being made, but Musk’s aircraft is fully visible in the FAA registry data and doesn’t have an obfuscated ICAO hex code. It wasn’t part of the PIA programme, which is also not something endorsed by the ICAO but only used by the FAA within US borders. When flying abroad an aircraft must use its static ICAO address. Even if it was there’s still nothing wrong with tracking the aircraft and nothing illegal about people matching the rolling ICAO hex codes to the real aircraft. It frustrates me that we’ve allowed Musk to completely redefine the conversation around something that was already settled and accepted: 1. Flight tracking data, collected from ADS-B, is legal and publicly available. Aircraft ownership data is public too. 2. Nobody has a right to keeping their aircraft movements private, and aircraft movements != personal movements. 3. After much lobbying the FAA introduced LADD & PIA, but they say outright that it’s not a guarantee of confidentiality and just makes it slightly harder to track an aircraft. 4. PIA temporary ICAO codes can only be rotated every 60 days (going down to 20) and it’s pitifully easy for any aircraft spotter, as have hung around airports for decades, to match a new one to an aircraft registration.
    - jdong 4y ago
      >1. Flight tracking data, collected from ADS-B, is legal and publicly available. Aircraft ownership data is public too. Not legal in Europe. You can't legally collect this (or any other PII) for fun, you'd need particularly strong reasons to do so without consent. Mobile phones also broadcast their IMEIs and location, it would be similarly illegal to collect and store those signals to track phone movements. >2. Nobody has a right to keeping their aircraft movements private, and aircraft movements != personal movements. While not all aircraft movements are personal movements, many are.
      - _djo_ 4y ago
        Again, please provide any substantive evidence for that claim. Private aircraft are neither private cars nor private phones and have he ever been treated equivalently under EU law. You’re reasoning through false analogies.
        4y ago
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
The journalists posted links to it to no? To try and sneak around the rules but still do the same as the banned account. Wasn’t about his plane anyway someone in a mask made a threat on a car his child was being driven in thinking it was Elon.

kevingadd 4y ago

Yeah, it was public ADS-B data. A lot of the suspended journalists never even posted his location, they just posted about the situation or the supposed stalker incident.

TheHappyOddish 4y ago
From what I've read, this is untrue. He has requested a privacy ICAO (https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privacy-icao-address-pia/ https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/privac...), and as such the ownership was not public. The data published was not just ADS-B data, but ADS-B data + content intended to violate the specific privacy ICAO. I'm not defending Musks actions, simply providing additional context.
- pera 4y ago
  Well ADS-B Exchange just got suspended (https://twitter.com/ADSBexchange https://twitter.com/ADSBexchange) so it seems that publishing public radio data is now against their TOS.
  - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
    I believe that ADS-B Exhange (like the suspended journalists) linked to ElonJet's Mastodon account. This is consistent with the policy - even if that policy isn't agreeable - and doesn't seem to indicate that publishing public radio data is banned.
    - lambic2 4y ago
      Is there any evidence/source that shows the suspended journalists actually linked ElonJet's Mastodon account? I thought they only mentioned ElonJet's Twitter handle.
      - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        That's what I've read, ironically on Twitter. The JoinMastodon account definitely did. This article from TC confirms: https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-suspends-mastodon-twitter-account-over-elonjet-tracking/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-suspends-mastodo... Also I get journalists are feeling threatened, but it's a shame to see such a clear emotionally charged article from TC, I used to trust them for unbiased tech reporting.
        lambic2 4y ago
        I'm curious, can you point me to a sentence that you find "emotionally charged"? I went over every sentence and every one just states some facts. I'm not seeing the emotionally charged part.
        lambic2 4y ago
        The article confirms that Elon suspends link to Mastodons, but doesn't say anything about the journalists posting links to the Mastodon account for ElonJen.
        TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        Apologies, the TC article states why the JoinMastodon account was suspended: > Twitter apparently suspended its open source competitor Mastodon from the service on Thursday afternoon. Just prior to its suspension, Mastodon (@joinmastodon) tweeted a link to the jet tracking account on its own service, according to archives.
  - rosnd 4y ago
    "publishing public radio data" could mean just about anything. Your phone constantly broadcasts it's serial number and location to everyone near you, would you therefore consider your location to be public information whenever you move around with your phone? Some people still use unencrypted wifi networks, is their traffic "public"? What about baby monitors? Do you think that unencrypted baby monitor traffic is "public" in any reasonable sense of the term?
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      If your baby monitor signals go into my home and I am able to demodulate them into a clear signal then why shouldn't I be able to? With wifi, an unencrypted network is an open invitation to connect to it, as this is the way to connect through portals which transfer to encrypted tunnels. Intercepting other traffic on the network is not OK since you would be violating hacking laws since it isn't your network. Same thing with cell networks. Your phone broadcasts its data, which is perfectly legal to pick up, but if you have to use any network resources which aren't yours then it's a no-go. Overall, if it is being broadcast into my house I can capture it, but I can't send things back to the source and try and get it to do things. Your argument falls flat, sorry.
      - rosnd 4y ago
        >If your baby monitor signals go into my home and I am able to demodulate them into a clear signal then why shouldn't I be able to? Do you genuinely believe that you being allowed to spy on to your neighbours unencrypted baby monitor is a good thing that's helpful for society at large? For example, in Finland this is legislated as follows: Section 37 – Confidentiality of radiocommunications (1) Radiocommunication is confidential and may be received only by those for whom it is intended. (46/2005) (2) Whoever receives or otherwise has information on a confidential radio transmission not intended for him/her must not wrongfully disclose it or make use of the knowledge of the contents or existence of the transmission. (3) The following are not considered to be confidential radiocommunications: ...1) initial transmissions of television and radio programmes; ...2) emergency calls; ...3) radiocommunications conducted using a public calling channel; ...4) the amateur service; ...5) shortwave radiocommunications in the 27 MHz frequency band; or any other radiocommunication intended for general reception. (46/2005) The penalty for violating this law is a court-determined fine. Do you think that this law is overall a net-positive or a net-negative for society? What good things come from you being able to listen to arbitrary transmissions intended for someone else?
- _djo_ 4y ago
  This claim keeps being made, but Musk’s aircraft is fully visible in the FAA registry data and doesn’t have an obfuscated ICAO hex code. It wasn’t part of the PIA programme, which is also not something endorsed by the ICAO but only used by the FAA within US borders. When flying abroad an aircraft must use its static ICAO address. Even if it was there’s still nothing wrong with tracking the aircraft and nothing illegal about people matching the rolling ICAO hex codes to the real aircraft. It frustrates me that we’ve allowed Musk to completely redefine the conversation around something that was already settled and accepted: 1. Flight tracking data, collected from ADS-B, is legal and publicly available. Aircraft ownership data is public too. 2. Nobody has a right to keeping their aircraft movements private, and aircraft movements != personal movements. 3. After much lobbying the FAA introduced LADD & PIA, but they say outright that it’s not a guarantee of confidentiality and just makes it slightly harder to track an aircraft. 4. PIA temporary ICAO codes can only be rotated every 60 days (going down to 20) and it’s pitifully easy for any aircraft spotter, as have hung around airports for decades, to match a new one to an aircraft registration.
  - jdong 4y ago
    >1. Flight tracking data, collected from ADS-B, is legal and publicly available. Aircraft ownership data is public too. Not legal in Europe. You can't legally collect this (or any other PII) for fun, you'd need particularly strong reasons to do so without consent. Mobile phones also broadcast their IMEIs and location, it would be similarly illegal to collect and store those signals to track phone movements. >2. Nobody has a right to keeping their aircraft movements private, and aircraft movements != personal movements. While not all aircraft movements are personal movements, many are.
    - _djo_ 4y ago
      Again, please provide any substantive evidence for that claim. Private aircraft are neither private cars nor private phones and have he ever been treated equivalently under EU law. You’re reasoning through false analogies.
      - 4y ago

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

The journalists posted links to it to no? To try and sneak around the rules but still do the same as the banned account. Wasn’t about his plane anyway someone in a mask made a threat on a car his child was being driven in thinking it was Elon.