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I think the reason this debate continues to rage on is that all of the options are worse than what is currently available with pre-processors. If CSS can’t mat

by joeydi 4y ago

I think the reason this debate continues to rage on is that all of the options are worse than what is currently available with pre-processors. If CSS can’t match or improve on the obvious syntax used by sass then they should not implement it. All of these options are confusing. Nesting is not a requirement for CSS. Just let it go and if you want nesting use sass.

barnabee 4y ago
I try not to use preprocessors or bundlers/build tools for simple stuff so the addition of features like this to the base CSS language is something I look forward to.
RheingoldRiver 4y ago
Preprocessors aren't always available though. For example, I almost never have access to one, developing with MediaWiki (there is an extension that makes it available but most of the wiki farms I've worked for have not had it installed).
- Gigachad 4y ago
  That sounds like a media wiki problem. CSS provides all the tools you need to produce the results.
aliyfarah 4y ago
> Nesting is not a requirement for CSS. Not a requirement because it’s not in the spec or because developers don’t need it? If the former, the proposal is to make it a requirement. After CSS grid, CSS nesting is probably the most requested feature of CSS for as long as I can remember for web devs. I only use sass these days for nesting and it would be nice if I didn’t need that extra dependency.
- alwillis 4y ago
  > I only use sass these days for nesting and it would be nice if I didn’t need that extra dependency. Same. I'm using plain CSS on my current project while using the test implementation of option 3, using PostCSS plugins.
- alwillis 4y ago
  > Not a requirement because it’s not in the spec… BTW, there is a spec [1]. [1]: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-nesting/ https://drafts.csswg.org/css-nesting/
toastal 4y ago
I've stopped using preprocessor for years now. Almost everything I need is now in the spec or solved ‘good enough’ through a naming scheme. IMO, a preprocessor is a lot of complexity for little gain currently.
- culi 4y ago
  Eh. I kinda hate writing separate selectors just for a `:hover` I agree CSS has come a long way. Nested CSS is the one thing I'm waiting for before I completely abandon preprocessors. Think about the amount of characters wasted on having to write a whole separate rule to add a hover effect or something similar. Sure, better practices could usually make this unnecessary, but there's definitely valid situations for it. If you add up all the extra kb across millions of sites, and all the extra savings minifiers would be able to achieve with this syntax, I'd bet it starts to add up at a certain point I was sad to see it left out of 2022-interop, but it's definitely the biggest feature I'm waiting for
  - alwillis 4y ago
    > I was sad to see it left out of 2022-interop, but it's definitely the biggest feature I'm waiting for My understanding is the features for Interop were chosen because there wasn't good interoperability between browsers for them. With CSS Nesting, once the spec (and the syntax) is finalized, it's going to work the same in all browser engines; hopefully it'll go smoothly and we won't need CSS Nesting be part of Interop 2023.
    - culi 4y ago
      Correct. I meant the "2022 Investigation" section of it which accounts for 10% of the grade and focuses on future features
  - toastal 4y ago
    I wouldn't disagree. Nesting state and pseudo selectors can clean up code.
  - hypertele-Xii 4y ago
eyelidlessness 4y ago
> If CSS can’t match or improve on the obvious syntax used by sass then they should not implement it. And this is the problem. For so long there was a technical limitation because parsing complexity, then there suddenly wasn’t a limitation anymore and the existing syntax wasn’t good enough anymore so we’re shooting the moon. I agree, all of the options are confusing. The only seemingly viable option is close to Sass, but it should just be strict and stop introducing more ambiguity to the grammar which is already absurdly complex.
Vinnl 4y ago
I do wonder whether "no nesting" should've been an option in the poll. Not because I necessarily think it's the right option, but it might be: if this gets added to CSS, but people keep using other tools for easier nesting, then we're stuck with that implementation nonetheless.
- criswell 4y ago
  I want to say this but too lazy to defend it.
mekster 4y ago
For sake, Stylus doesn't even require colons and semicolons with plenty more features that was invented more than a decade ago and CSS is still trying to sort out things that was solved in 2010 in worse ways in 2022? This is beyond comprehensible. I guess I can never let go of preprocessors.

by joeydi 4y ago

barnabee 4y ago

I try not to use preprocessors or bundlers/build tools for simple stuff so the addition of features like this to the base CSS language is something I look forward to.

RheingoldRiver 4y ago

Preprocessors aren't always available though. For example, I almost never have access to one, developing with MediaWiki (there is an extension that makes it available but most of the wiki farms I've worked for have not had it installed).

Gigachad 4y ago
That sounds like a media wiki problem. CSS provides all the tools you need to produce the results.

aliyfarah 4y ago

> Nesting is not a requirement for CSS. Not a requirement because it’s not in the spec or because developers don’t need it? If the former, the proposal is to make it a requirement. After CSS grid, CSS nesting is probably the most requested feature of CSS for as long as I can remember for web devs. I only use sass these days for nesting and it would be nice if I didn’t need that extra dependency.

alwillis 4y ago
> I only use sass these days for nesting and it would be nice if I didn’t need that extra dependency. Same. I'm using plain CSS on my current project while using the test implementation of option 3, using PostCSS plugins.
alwillis 4y ago
> Not a requirement because it’s not in the spec… BTW, there is a spec [1]. [1]: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-nesting/ https://drafts.csswg.org/css-nesting/

toastal 4y ago

I've stopped using preprocessor for years now. Almost everything I need is now in the spec or solved ‘good enough’ through a naming scheme. IMO, a preprocessor is a lot of complexity for little gain currently.

culi 4y ago
Eh. I kinda hate writing separate selectors just for a `:hover` I agree CSS has come a long way. Nested CSS is the one thing I'm waiting for before I completely abandon preprocessors. Think about the amount of characters wasted on having to write a whole separate rule to add a hover effect or something similar. Sure, better practices could usually make this unnecessary, but there's definitely valid situations for it. If you add up all the extra kb across millions of sites, and all the extra savings minifiers would be able to achieve with this syntax, I'd bet it starts to add up at a certain point I was sad to see it left out of 2022-interop, but it's definitely the biggest feature I'm waiting for
- alwillis 4y ago
  > I was sad to see it left out of 2022-interop, but it's definitely the biggest feature I'm waiting for My understanding is the features for Interop were chosen because there wasn't good interoperability between browsers for them. With CSS Nesting, once the spec (and the syntax) is finalized, it's going to work the same in all browser engines; hopefully it'll go smoothly and we won't need CSS Nesting be part of Interop 2023.
  - culi 4y ago
    Correct. I meant the "2022 Investigation" section of it which accounts for 10% of the grade and focuses on future features
- toastal 4y ago
  I wouldn't disagree. Nesting state and pseudo selectors can clean up code.
- hypertele-Xii 4y ago

eyelidlessness 4y ago

> If CSS can’t match or improve on the obvious syntax used by sass then they should not implement it. And this is the problem. For so long there was a technical limitation because parsing complexity, then there suddenly wasn’t a limitation anymore and the existing syntax wasn’t good enough anymore so we’re shooting the moon. I agree, all of the options are confusing. The only seemingly viable option is close to Sass, but it should just be strict and stop introducing more ambiguity to the grammar which is already absurdly complex.

Vinnl 4y ago

I do wonder whether "no nesting" should've been an option in the poll. Not because I necessarily think it's the right option, but it might be: if this gets added to CSS, but people keep using other tools for easier nesting, then we're stuck with that implementation nonetheless.

criswell 4y ago
I want to say this but too lazy to defend it.

mekster 4y ago

For sake, Stylus doesn't even require colons and semicolons with plenty more features that was invented more than a decade ago and CSS is still trying to sort out things that was solved in 2010 in worse ways in 2022? This is beyond comprehensible. I guess I can never let go of preprocessors.